Claiming to be a Calvinst (whatever that means anymore), he is a promoter of the Emergent Church Movement (speaker at Catalyst which is ECM), while saying some decent things. Like Driscoll, except I haven't heard Chandler "cuss" although he did use the "c" word in his interview with Driscoll. In fact, throughout his church's website, the language peculiar to ECM is used, as are the books the church recommends to its people. Remember, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, its usually a duck.
Chandler is connected directly with ECM founder and course-talking Mark Driscoll:
His church links to Acts 29 and The Resurgence (Driscoll's website). As well, he also links to Piper. This is no surprise. When people like Piper they usually like his friend Mark Driscoll and more often than not, if there's a link to Desiring God, there's also a link to Resurgence.
Interview with Driscoll here. The first sign of a church dying is not taking care of the building, Chandler says. He preached (live) at the Villiage Denten campus church once at the one year anniversary. He "speaks in places that reformed, complimentarian teachers don't get invited to --because he grew a church to a mega church." His numbers got him invited...not doctrine. More than "just preaching the bible"--they want to know how to grow a church. "Most reformed churches ar 6, 8, 10 families" and they laugh at that. "Larger churches know how to organize." He's learning about technology and marketing for his church. Uses the c* word in this interview. Driscoll assumes books, conferences would be upcoming as the next level. Chandler says he will be writing a book.
Chandler is a Catalyst speaker. This is very much an Emergent conference with various ECM leaders coming to speak yearly. ECM leaders such as Andy Stanley who helped start this event. Others like John Maxwell. Catalyst had Emergent heretic Rob Bell in July 2006. Speakers for this year here which includes Bell again, ECMer Carlos Wittaker, ECM leader Chris Seay, and some women (Nancy Ortberg, Miriam Webster, Lisa Harper, ECM feminist Margaret Feinberg), ECM's Leadership Network "Mission Specialist" Reggie McNeal, ECMer Ed Stetzer, ECM leader Alan Hirsch, and Perry Nobel.
Partners of Catalyst are emergent also.
Chandler is a speaker at Emergent Exponential 09 (Catalyst is a sponsor, along with Leadership Network, Shapevine, Willow Creek Association, Zondervan, Bethel Seminary, and RTS which is going Emergent/liberal) . Other speakers he shares the platform with are: John Burke, Francis Chan (he's also at Catalyst), Alan Hirsch, Tim Keller, Ed Stetzer, Erwin McManus, Gary Lamb. Women will also be speaking, some are women "pastors" and/or feminists like Lisa Bennett, Kelly Kastens ("worship director"), Tammy Melchien, Anne Miliam, Mary Nelson, Sommer Wisher.
Chandler spoke at the Acts 29 Boot Camp this year:
"The Acts 29 Boot Camp is considered by many to be one of the best available. It is required for Acts 29 applicants, but is open to anyone. Are you considering planting a church? Are you called? Are you ready? The Acts 29 Boot Camp can help make the difference between success and casualty. The Seattle Boot Camp will be hosted by Mars Hill Church in Seattle, WA. Speakers for this event will include Mark Driscoll and many more."
His profile is on Driscoll's "the resurgence" website.
Chandler was a speaker at Driscoll's Advance 09 along with ECMer Driscoll and Ed Stetzer, as well as Piper.
Four Books recommended for "Grief recovery" at his Villiage church (how many recovery programs does a church need? Isn't simple discipleship and pastoral counseling enough?):
One is by Thomas Watson. The only author in line with "Calvinism" as Chandler claims he is.
Two books by Romanist CS Lewis who was NOT Evangelical in the least. Let's not forget his questionable relationship, too.
One book by Nancy Guthrie (she enjoys Emergent leader Eugene Peterson...also it appears she teaches men from time to time).
Emergent verbage in their statement of philosophy of ministry like
"incarnationl", "attractional"
Counseling outside the local church--this shows a low view of God's way of setting up the local assembly to help disciple men and women and equip them. Note the emergent vocabulary:
"We believe an authentic church should strive to meet individual needs through relationships with others in community. You can develop relationships with others through home groups, support groups, and other connection opportunities. When additional care is required, our pastoral care ministry exists to meet the emotional and spiritual needs of Village attendees in unique life circumstances. The following services are available..." Then they offer three ministries outside of the church.
On the Villiages page on Serving the community: we see Emergent vocabulary and wrong ecclesiology:"The goal of a minister of reconciliation is to restore man and creation to a right relationship with the Lord. The primary way we serve our city is through each of our members engaging all areas of their lives with purpose and intentionality as God has called them....Second, the Church as a whole has been called to seek the good of the city (Jeremiah 29: 5-8). We seek the welfare of the city by focusing our corporate missions efforts on improving the health, safety, education and commercial opportunities available within the city."
This isn't what the churches of God are called to do anywhere in the NT, where God starts building His churches. We see the local body ministerying first and foremost to Christians. The local church is not called to change the world/society.
Jesus said, Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." Commercial opportunities are earthly and temporal and we haven't TIME to help the world with their economic status.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
The Villiage's Serving the World: more emergent phrasology:
"Missions is something we attempt to live out every day. So, whether it is engaging our neighbors or co-workers, or going to serve those who live in the uttermost parts of the world, those experiences are tools to help us live out Missional Living with other members of the church. While we believe "missions" is a lifestyle, we recognize that we are called to engage and serve all the peoples of the world."
We're called to PROCLAIM the Gospel and make disciples and then baptize them,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." But if you're too busy worrying about commerical opportunities or ridding the world of hunger or worried about education, then there isn't TIME to teach them ALL JESUS commanded.
Here's where the Calvinist's church reflects Arminian/Emergent theology (not Calvinist or Reformed) in relation to the "Gospel" (aka story)they give at their website - note the missing declaration of man dead in sins and trespasses, haters of God, His enemies. They paint a fairer picture of fallen man and make Salvation about a story, not Truth, not Fact, but a mere story. Stories lower the power of the Gospel and God NEVER refers to the Gospel nor His redemption as a "story". Like sin, Hell is horrific and real. But they don't mention that either. This sounds far more akin to what Ricky Warren says.
"The story of redemption is about the living God. He has been writing a grand and glorious narrative of His goodness and grace since before time began. "
"Through one man's disobedience, we fell from this joyful state of fellowship. Sin entered our hearts, and with that sin, the world became twisted and fractured."
"The harmony and peace that creation once enjoyed was damaged by sin and broken in disrepair."
"Since that time, God has patiently and purposefully continued the story of redemption."
"Through Christ we have been offered restoration and reconciliation. God takes that which is broken and makes it new. The Father invites His children into relationship with Him and into the newness of life Christ offers. We urge you to explore this story further. What God starts He will bring to completion, and we pray that you would be woven into the narrative."
"If you feel Christ inviting you into this story — inviting you into restored relationship with the living God — turn to Him in repentance and put your trust in Him and the work He accomplished on the cross to redeem you and save you."
For any biblical Christian the above message should cause eyes to pop out and grief to set in. This reflects NOTHING of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ or the true view of the Fall. This is not even reformed, but totally Emergent.
The Villiage Recommended Books
Paul Tripp (the guy who justifies using the s word and taught his kids to use it.),"Age of Opportunity", "Instruments in the Redeemer's Hands", "War of Words"
James Dobson "Bringing up Boys"
John Piper - half a dozen of his books
Robert Putnam "Bowling Alone" a secular book on American Community
Richard Foster - "Celebration of Discipline", "Streams of Living Water", "The Challenge of the Disciplined Life"
Andy Stanley and lane Jones "Communicating for a Change" - emergent
JI Packer "Concise Theology" - interfaith
Augustine "Confessions" Roman Catholic philosopher
Mark Driscoll "Confession of a Reformission Rev.", "The Radical Reformission"
Dan Wallace "Dethroning Jesus" - liberal scholar
Larry Crabb "Inside out" - psychologist turned mystic
Arbinger Institute - "Leadershp and Self- Deception" - http://www.blogger.com/ : "Arbinger is a diverse group, trained in business, law, economics, philosophy, the family, education, coaching, and psychology. We come from diverse cultural, religious and non-religious backgrounds. We share a deep understanding and passion for Arbinger's compelling model of human understanding. It offers people a common language for openly and clearly discussing - and settling - their differences. And it works across cultures, races, classes, religions and beliefs."
CS Lewis - "Mere Christianity", "The Problem of Pain" - Romanism
Tim Keller "Ministries of Mercy", "The Reason for God" - Emerging
Darrell L. Guder - "Missional Church" - http://www.blogger.com/ eccumenial, liberal (PCUSA)
Gordon MacDonald - Ordering Your World (disqualified pastor)
Ed Stetzer- "Planting Missional Churches"
Don Whitney - "Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life" - Foster promoter
Philip Yancey - "The Bible Jesus Read", "The Jesus I never Knew" , "What's So Amazing About Grace?"- liberal, pro-Homosexual - http://www.takeheed.net/SEPTEMBER2004.htm
John Stott - "The Cross of Christ" - denier of literal Hell, Anglican
Peter Drucker - "The Effective Executive" - http://www.blogger.com/
Brother Lawrence - "The Practice of the Presence of God"
Brennan Manning - "The Ragamuffin Gospel"
Dallas Willard - "The Spirit of the Disciplines"
Edward Welch - "When People Are Big" - holds to psychology/integration: http://www.blogger.com/
Remember, a denial of being Emergent doesn't mean one is not. What counts is what they actually say and do. Chandler'd website is full of emergent speak and Arminian theology (like his "gospel" page). Driscoll is the same way: he claims to not be Emergent, even though he's one of the founding fathers of the modern movement, and after distancing himself from it, he then turned around and hosted an Emergent Conference with leaders of the ECM like Karen Ward.
***Update****
I came across this Recovery program at The Villiage. While sprinkled with some Scripture, the quotes included: Quotes: CS Lewis, WCF; Celebrate Recovery Principle 7 (Rick Warren);Spiritual Disciplines/Richard Foster; JI Packer; Piper; Spiritual Disciplines (Bible reading, meditation, prayer, fasting, solitude, confession, silence, worship, fellowship, service p.36); pragmatism.
He also follows Alan Hirsch and Andy Crouch on Twitter.
Chandler was a speaker at Leadership Network's Innovation 3 Conference. Leadership Network is probably the biggest promoter of all things Emergent.
Matt Chandler: "Engaging the Culture And Deepening Your Church".
Other speakers: Nancy Ortberg, Tim Keller, Ed Stetzer, Mark Discoll.
Tim Keller, "Turning Your Biggest Idol Into Your Biggest Benefit": Apparently from the official notes here, Keller calls Peter a racist based on Gal. 2:14.
35 comments:
You'll know a tree by it's fruit. I challenge you to more adequately and correctly present the Gospel of Jesus Christ than Chandler, Chan, and Piper. The problem is not the message that they bring or the way that it is brought. The problem is people who harden their hearts and stiffen their necks when they are called by God repeatedly to repent and be humbled. The greatest commandment is to love God and love people. We'll be judged for how we do this. How will He view blasting Christians on the internet?
"How will He view blasting Christians on the internet?" you asked. You mean like you're doing with me?
I stand by what I said. I know the ECM well and that is where Chandler is going. Consider why Piper and Chandler and Chan hang out with ECMers and endorse the ECM and its leaders. Birds of a feather flock together.
It is precisely because I love God and His Wor and His people that I take a biblical stand.
See:http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4174 Where John MacArthur also deals with Piper, Mahaney,and Driscoll publically.
Forgive me if you thought I was blasting you. My point was simply to check the fruit. I've seen some amazing changes take place in the lives of people who were touched by God through the teaching of all three of those guys. I've also seen the masses ignore the Gospel completely and get lost in lukewarmness. Kudos to you for taking a stand but 1 Cor 13 instructs us to love tirelessly and endure. Always look for the best in fellow believers... look for Jesus.
Remember Steve, agape in 1Cor 13 rejoices with the Truth and not wrongdoing.
We are called to test all things, to look not on mere appearences, but to inspect the fruit. That means going beyond mere appearances, and judging by substance.
Chan, Chandler, and Piper are man-centered and therefore pragmatic. That's the problem. All three are supporters of the ECM by repeated participation and fellowship with ECM leaders and conferences.
If you are unfamiliar with the dangers of the Emergent Church Movement, a good place to start would be www.apprising.org with Ken Silva.
Matt Chandler is a godly man who preaches the gospel clearly and faithfully. He is known as one of the most gifted preachers alive today, but here's the key - not only does he preach the gospel, he loves it.
I am grateful for his church and the fruitfulness of his ministry.
Jonathon,
It may be that you are not aquainted with the Emergent movement, in which case you need to familiarize yourself with what it is. Chandler IS going Emergent as his church website (including the books recommended) and conferences he speaks at (aka endorsements) demonstrates.
I wonder how you define "godly"? I believe a godly person would definitely have discernment, something that seems to be lacking with Chandler. His connection with Driscoll should be a clue as well. A "godly" person wouldn't nor shouldn't be associated with such a person like Driscoll.
If you haven't, you should read Silva's page that I linked to at the beginning of this post:
http://apprising.org/2009/04/confusion-concerning-calvinist-spirituality/
Also, a good place to read about the Emergent church movement is here: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/emergingchurch.htm
Please take the time to read the various articles at Lighthouse. Their work is well documented and solid.
With all respect, I would encourage you to do some research on the difference between "emerging" and "emergent." There is a bit of ambiguity and mixed usage that goes on, and it seems to me, (correct me if I'm wrong) that you might be confusing the two.
I appreciate your dedication to Truth and exposing untruths. But speaking at an Emergent conference is not "aka endorsing," as you have previously mentioned. Chandler has publicly stated that opportunities in speaking at these events is a valuable platform to dialogue and preach to circles that might otherwise be closed off toward the Calvinist/Reformed thought.
I would also encourage you to listen to sermons from the Village Church -- not only look at the terminology of a website. Chandler's talks are incredibly God-focused, gospel-driven, depravity-of-man exposing sermons.
Right belief is incredibly important, but I would have to disagree with your judgment in declaring Chandler to be emergent.
Matt,
Thank you stopping by.
I'd like to just remind you that Chandler has been to more than just one Emergent conference. This show support at least, if not like-mindedness with the ECM. He's not trying to reach out to the ECMers, but rather join them. In fact, its clear by the verbage that his church is ECM,as well. I am very familiar with such phrasology and his church uses it liberally. I give examples in my article.
Chandler is also partners with ECM X-Rated Driscoll. More over, the "gospel" presented is again, full of Emergentese: "The story of redemption is about the living God. He has been writing a grand and glorious narrative of His goodness and grace since before time began....We urge you to explore this story further. What God starts He will bring to completion, and we pray that you would be woven into the narrative....If you feel Christ inviting you into this story ...""
This is classic Emergentspeak.
Furthermore, the books The Village recommends are full of Emergent leaders & authors (I've provided a list in my article).
So to recap, Chandler speaks at several ECM conferences, he partners with Driscoll (ECM leader), his church is full of Emergent language, and they refer people to dozens of Emergent authors.
Remember, a denial of being Emergent doesn't mean one is not. What counts is what they actually say and do. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, hangs out with the ducks it is a duck, regardless if they claim to be a swan.
You know nothing to link Driscoll, Chandler, and Stetzer to ECM. All are openly against Emergent garbage. In fact, Driscoll left when he heard all the theological heresies they began to teach.
Chandler has also specifically said that he avoids doing 100% Calvinist events so that he can challenge other theological persuasions.
Brandon, actually yes I do know many things about these people and their connection to the ECM.
As far as Chandler is concerned, check out the info I've gatherd here: http://surphside.blogspot.com/search?q=chandler
and
http://surphside.blogspot.com/search?q=Driscoll
Driscoll and Stetzer are ENDORSERS of Emergent Jim Belcher's newest book. In fact when you look at the list its nothing but Emergents.
You have to realize that POMO/ECM uses the trick of saying two things that are self-contradictory. However, you have to look at what they DO and who they hold hands with and endorse.
What they claim and what they DO are two different things.
When men say they disagree with areas of the ECM but then go on to repeatedly teach at the ECM pulpits and conferences, in addition to selling ECM type material, and endorse ECM books/authors, and use ECM verbage and methodology, its clear they DO endorse the ECM, regardless of their trite declarations to the contrary (they have to have that wide audience--appeal to all kinds of folks).
ACTIONS speak louder than words.
I have done my homework. You should too.
Brandon,
Review my comments above your's where I show WHY Chandler is going Emergent.
I'd love to see you duke it out with this guy...
http://www.atruechurch.info/falseteachershome.html
Hmm, don't know who that is.
‘It is precisely because I love God and His Word and His people that I take a biblical stand.’ For this I greatly admire. However, I think overall you are misguided and misinformed.
“SUMMARY: Because of our understanding of absolute and unshakeable truth, The Village is not an ‘Emergent Church’. However, there is a broader movement called “the emerging Church” with which we would certainly share some general agreement. Confusing, I know. Emerging vs. emergent; emerging we are, but emergent we are not.” Please refer to the article Is the Village an Emergent Church? http://fm.thevillagechurch.net/articles
‘Consider why Piper and Chandler and Chan hang out with ECMers and endorse the ECM and its leaders. Birds of a feather flock together.’
Christ was considered a drunk and friend of sinners, 'Behold, a gluttonous man, and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' (Luke 7:34) Why, because he avoided them? Quite the opposite! However his relationship with them did not make him one, nor does Chandler's relationship and speaking engagements make him an Emergent. Chandler has publicly stated that opportunities in speaking at these events is a valuable platform to dialogue and preach to circles that might otherwise be closed off toward the true Gospel.
‘He preached (live) at the Village Denton campus church once at the one year anniversary.’
What does this matter?? He is now broadcast live across all three campuses even though he was against the idea from the beginning. He refuses to take church resources and build the monster mega church building which sits vacant for most of the week. The Village Church believes we have been given not to terminate on ourselves but to give freely to others.
‘Emergent verbage in their statement of philosophy of ministry like "incarnational", "attractional" ‘
"The Village prefers to view things not from an attractional, but incarnational perspective. Instead of ministering on the basis of people coming to us, our approach is to take the ministry to the people (as is commanded in the Great Commission). Like the Son of God condescending to leave His heavenly home and dwell among those whom He loved, we want to be known for our willingness to take the gospel from within the walls of our building to affect the lives of those we come into contact." Italics are author added.
‘This isn't what the churches of God are called to do anywhere in the NT, where God starts building His churches.’
Are we to omit the OT even though it is constantly quoted and referenced? Matt. 10:8 states “Heal the sick, raise
the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.” Nowhere does this say to do so only to believers. The bible states to “store up treasure in heaven” and “give to the poor.” Nowhere does it state give only to the poor believer. The bible goes on to state in Matt. 22:39 “Love your neighbor as yourself” not love your believing neighbor as yourself. “Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms” 1 Peter 4:10 is not limited to believers.
‘We're called to PROCLAIM the Gospel and make disciples and then baptize them…’
Missional living means proclaiming the gospel by engaging. How else do you proclaim?
‘Chan, Chandler, and Piper are man-centered and therefore pragmatic.’ Inaccurate statement. “Chandler's talks are incredibly God-focused, gospel-driven, depravity-of-man exposing sermons.” Accurate statement.
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.”
You know aggie,
I would like to (and could) address the multitude of issues you brought up, but the biggest issue is this: you take a lot of things out of context. You took Matt. 7, Matt. 10, and 1Peter 4:10 out of context as well as my own statements, then made wrong applications and accusations based on them. This tells me that no matter how much I discuss with you, you are not going to communicate well because you see what you want to see.
I would urge you to go back and study Scripture IN ITS CONTEXT about the local church and its function, as well as what the Great Commission is. Here's a hint:
1Co 2:1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
Also, re-read the entire article. I give facts as well as Scripture which properly addresses the issues. You haven't, I'm afraid.
Your judging others yourself for judging. This is precisely what Matt. 7 is saying, but you can't see that because you didn't bother to read the CONTEXT of that one verse.
After days of deliberation over all the things presented, I would like to offer these last few thoughts before I move on with my life and return to my non-Emergent church. ;) It seems you are confused on the difference between "emerging" and "Emergent" as Matt commented previous.
I presented facts and an article proving The Village is not an Emergent church. Since you dismissed this and stood by your assumptions presented as fact I won't bother to direct you to the Saturday seminar that explains who The Village is, what the Emergent "church" is, and how the Village Church is not an Emergent church which can be found under studies and seminars on the resources tab.
The Village Church is an EMERGING church which admittedly means they will have similar agreements to Emergent "verbage" with the main distinction of viewing the Scriptures as unshakeable Truth. "The Village Church exists to bring glory to God through lives
changed by the gospel of Jesus Christ. We seek to reflect upon the past weaknesses of our evangelical heritage and attempt to work within the meta-narrative of Scripture, teaching mission, community and Kingdom, but NOT at the expense of the Bible or the objective and absolute truth
which is most fully expressed in the living Word, Jesus Christ. It
is His unchanging and definitive gospel which changes lives to
the glory of God. Because of our recognition of an ever-changing cultural movement, The Village embraces the emerging tendency to
reflect upon our tradition and use new means to tell the old story.
Because of our understanding of absolute and unshakeable truth,
The Village is not an “Emergent Church.”
In regards to Matt's socializations and speaking engagements, you didn't mention my reference to Luke as being out of context so I can infer we both agree on the fact that Jesus was not a drunk or glutton even though he was considered one because of his socializations. But hypocritacally you accuse Matt of going Emergent based on his socializations and speaking engagements. According to you, one should only speak to like-minded people rather than PROCLAIM the gospel to those who need to hear it most. Chandler has publicaly claimed he does the latter, as other people who commented also claimed. I'm sure I could point to many more of his speaking engagements not considered Emergent. Not to consider the 6,000+ congregation at The Village he addresses 40+ a year that are not Emergent.
I can't speak for why they recommeneded the books they did, but I'm sure they have very good reason. Need I point out that ALL truth is God's Truth regardless of the location. You know Paul references Pagan literature in our Bible right?
In reference to "We see the local body ministerying first and foremost to Christians," you totally ommitted the Serving the Church page which is listed first and foremost and considered primary. Church is not an organization or website, but rather the body of believers local and global and have absolutely been commanded to serve believers and non-believers alike. The similarities to Emergent on the Serving Community and World are due to the fact that The Village believes Biblical confrontation won't happen unless you engage culture and world around you.
Eight years into the ministry of The Village Church, Bible study is the focus. The Bible is unapologetically believed, preached, and proclaimed. The Village unapologetically preache the gospel and depravity of man and as a church exclaims, "How Great Is Our God!!"
Well, Aggie, I knew you'd do this, and I can't change your mind. The facts I presented speak for themselves, but I can't make you see.
You said, "I can't speak for why they recommeneded the books they did, but I'm sure they have very good reason. Need I point out that ALL truth is God's Truth regardless of the location. You know Paul references Pagan literature in our Bible right?"
This faulty thinking allows people to take out what "good" they see in error, and "leave" the error behind, without concern where the source is. Let me show you why this isn't biblical.
First of all God is the God of Truth. As such He demands purity in doctrine and practice. Wisdom from God is first of all "pure" James says. That wisdom is application of biblical Truth---BIBLICAL---FROM THE BIBLE. Its spiritual. God does not use things of darkness to show us Truth. ONLY God's revealed Word (which isn't discoverable but had to be given by Him to the prophets) is inspired (lit. "God-breathed").
1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
Just today I posted on this issue: http://surphside.blogspot.com/2010/08/merging-charismaticism-with-doctrines.html
Also,I suggest reading this article which addresses this very fallacy of "all truth is God's truth":
http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/sproul11_6.html :
Is All Truth God’s Truth? http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/truth92.html
Hunt asks, "Should we not consider it odd that God has apparently inspired men such as Freud, Jung, and now more recently Maslow and Rogers with “truths” hidden from the apostles and prophets and all of the leaders in the entire history of the church until the present time?"
Adams presents the problem of what integrationists include under "All truth is God’s truth" when he says:
All revelation from God is inerrant. This fact poses a new problem for the integrationist. He can call some theory, idea, or method supposedly discovered in nature "God’s Truth" if he wishes, but if he thinks for a minute, how is he to establish it as such? In no other field of endeavor has there been so much disagreement. Psychologists retool throughout their lifetime to keep up with the latest newly-uncovered system (or parts thereof) (p. 24).
Adams asks:
Which theory is True and which is not? Why should there be a mixture of truth and error if God has truly revealed Truth? Did God want to confuse us? Revelation, whether General or Special, is always inerrant. In Special Revelation, we can turn with confidence to any part of it and be sure that we are dealing with Truth. In dealing with nature, on the other hand, integrationists tell us that we must separate truth from error, revealed materials from non-revealed materials. If there were Truth mixed with error, who gets to decide what is revelation and what is not? (p. 25).
It will no longer be true that God has hidden these things from the wise and prudent, and revealed them unto babes; but the babes will be lost in hopeless bewilderment, and carnal wisdom will have fine times for glorying. Scientific men will be the true prophets of our Israel, even though they deny Israel's God; and instead of the Holy Spirit guiding the humble in heart, we shall see the enthronement of "the spirit of the age," whatever that may mean. -Spurgeon
I've enjoyed collaborating with you. You've challenged my thinking and I hope I did yours as well. I did not write anticipating changing your mind, but just wanting to give adequate representation to the other side of the coin that wasn't getting enough "air" time.
"All truth is God's truth" is a new concept to me and I plan on digging deeper. I think we can both agree that all truth is God's truth, but that the issue comes from where it is found and how it is presented. I will definitely take a look at the articles you presented, among others! However, is Truth spoken in the midst of darkness any less Truth? I think this refers more to discernment of Truth rather than darkness revealing Truth. I will concede the fact that some of those books would probably be better left unrecommended.
I've enjoyed our time together. May "the LORD bless and keep you; the LORD make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn His face toward you and give you peace."
Wow!
I am curious as to what your goal is on this blog? It doesn't seem to align with philippians 2, calling us as brothers and sisters to be like minded with tenderness and compassion.
There have always been divisions within the church. Divisions within theology. Divisions within church politics. It always saddens me. Especially when we use theology as a means to elevate ourselves above other believers rather than uniting as one body to reach the world for Christ.
I don't know you, Denise. But your heart appears hardened, boastful and incredibly proud of your knowledge and fast adherence to the letter of the law. Careful that you don't live and die by it. For as you know, I'm sure, Grace alone saves.
Marty,
Well unity is based on Truth. There is no unity when people divide away from biblical truth and uphold doctrines of demons, which is what the Charismatic Movement and Emergent Church Movement are.
Perhaps you are unaware of the mulitudes of Scripture that tell us to to judge all things, warn Christians, mark and avoid false teachers, etc.
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Is. 8 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice TO DISTINGUISH good from evil.
2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
Joh 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
2Tim. 4: 14 Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done. 15 You too should be on your guard against him, because he strongly opposed our message.
Rom. 16: 17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
I would suggest these two articles to start with:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/52-32.htm
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue94.htm
Don’t give me doctrine, just give me Jesus!
This seems to be the puddle deep hue and cry of those who take offense at this site. Do you not know that God demands we know biblical doctrine (doctrine = teaching)? You can only know the God of Truth if you know the Word of Truth, Scripture, and that IS doctrine.
1Ti 6:3 If anyone teaches a DIFFERENT DOCTRINE and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the TEACHING that accords with godliness,4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; AVOID THEM.
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of DOCTRINE , by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Tit 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound DOCTRINE and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
2Tim. 4: . 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
"It is thought to be mere bigotry to protest against the mad spirit which is now loose among us. Pan-indifferentism is rising like the tide; who can hinder it? We are all to be as one, even though we agree in next to nothing. It is a breach of brotherly love to denounce error. Hail, holy charity! Black is white; and white is black. The false is true; the true is false; the true and the false are one. Let us join hands, and never again mention those barbarous, old-fashioned doctrines about which we are sure to differ. Let the good and sound men for liberty's sake shield their "advanced brethren"; or, at least, gently blame them in a tone which means approval. After all, there is no difference, except in the point of view from which we look at things: it is all in the eye, or, as the vulgar say, "it is all my eye"! In order to maintain an open union, let us fight as for dear life against any form of sound words, since it might restrain our liberty to deny the doctrines of the Word of God!" - fromProgressive Theology by Charles Spurgeon, Sword and Trowel, April 1888
I do wish to remind you one thing. The Church is the bride of Christ. If we proclaim Matt Chandler as a heretic, while his ministry consistently produces good fruit (sharing the gospel, seeing people saved, biblical teaching, etc.), then we have a disconnect. MC has encouraged me greatly to dive into the Word and have a biblical worldview. I encourage you to read Philippians 1:18 and decide whether or not Christ is proclaimed in their church. Because of your indignant attitude towards the ECM and anything associated, you fail to see that Jesus is proclaimed as Lord. Start working on uniting the church instead of dividing it. Unity is far more important than persuading people to think your way.
aupx,
The issue with the ECM is that it is unholy. It mingles paganism with supposed worship of God. God says this is not to be so.
Psa 106:34 They did not destroy the peoples, As the LORD commanded them, 35 But they mingled with the nations And learned their practices,
Contemplative prayer/spirituality, meditation/sacred silence, incense, prayer labryths, all that Easter mystic paganism is prohibited by God because it is not of Him. As Master, Jesus Christ, whom you say is Lord, has said: Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
Truth is based upon Scripture, which Eastern Mysticism is not. Neither is throwing in Hollywood movies during a sermon....unless folks are trying to NOT focus on Christ Jesus the Master ("kurios" means Master, Owner, Sovereign Ruler).
The fruit of the ECM is putrid. Fruit of worldliness is dead and that's what we've gotten from the ECM, not to mention the Charismatic movement, of which Matt Chandler is a part of. Both movements are very man-centered and anti-Lordship.
So the fruit? Useless and deadly, according to Scripture. Remember, apx, weeds aren't fruit. John said "no lie is of the Truth", so it is with the ECM.
If Jesus is truly "Lord", then people need to stop promoting and being involved with such worldliness like these movemovents, otherwise He's not their Lord, and they certainly aren't His slave. Pragmatism is anti-thetical to the Bible for this very reason.
Denise: You say Matt Chandler is going Emergent because of conferences he speaks at and books listed on his church's website. Did Matt Chandler tell you he is going Emergent? Do his teachings not align with the Bible? Please give evidence from his messages that he is emergent.
turpin,
I have provided plenty of evidence. If you don't see it, I can't make you see it. You just don't want to see it.
ha, neither driscoll or matt would argue with you on being emergent.
but what stream of emergent are you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fgkfS6E-0
I'm not Emergent at all.
Denise,
This is the shoddiest set of research I have ever read. I was appalled by almost everything you had to say about Chandler, Piper, or Chan. Everything was filtered through a biased theology, worldview, and ecclesiology. Steven should be willing to "blast" you. We are called as Christians to live in peace love and harmony with one another as far as it concerns us and to expose false teachers. Judging from your own statements I would say that you are a legalistic self-righteous hypocrite, who seriously needs to evaluate your own ecclesiology, theology, and purpose in life before you start bashing men who are doing great work for the flocks that the Lord has given. BTW Augustine was a patriarch of Christianity, he was a great man who developed many doctrines for the early 1st century church.
Kristy,
You said, "We are called as Christians to live in peace love and harmony with one another as far as it concerns us..." and "I would say that you are a legalistic self-righteous hypocrite" yet where is YOUR peace, love, and harmony toward me?
You are judging me for judging which makes you the hypocrite Kristy. You demand of me what you won't give yourself. This is exactly what Matt. 7 talks about.
I'm not the one promoting Contemplative Spirituality, the Emergent Church Movement, Acts 29, or the Charismatic Movement. Chandler is.
I have provided evidence and it continues to come in the more Chandler delves into Acts 29 and promotes Emergent X-Rated Mark Driscoll. Most recently: http://www.discernthetime.com/messageboard/showthread.php?p=65551
Of course everything is filtered through doctrine, theology, and a worlview, Kristy; you do the same. Mine strives to be biblical. I test everything by Scripture and that includes all pastors, teachings, songs, books, speakers, authors, quotes, and songs, as well as myself (again Matt. 7).
John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
Is. 8 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice TO DISTINGUISH good from evil.
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Btw, Augustine was a Roman Catholic monk, NOT a Christian. He developed no biblical doctrine. All biblical doctrine was already in Scripture, which is why the early churches in the NT were equipped (2 Tim. 3:16-17). Don't be fooled by Rome's "church fathers"; they are not of Christ Jesus at all, they are a poisoned well in which is no Life but only death.
Here's what Augustine the Roman Catholic Bishop believed and taught:
The canon of Scripture includes the Septuagint OT canon (deuterocanonicals, Apocrypha)
Authoritative Tradition
Baptismal regeneration and grace
Necessity of baptism for salvation
Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Lord's Supper)
The Mass is a sacrifice
Necessity of the Lord's Supper for salvation
Purgatory and praying for the departed
The communion of saints and saintly intercession
Authority of the Catholic Church
Apostolic Succession
Possibility of falling from grace
The sacrament of penance
Mary was ever virgin
These are diametrically opposed to Scripture and are the pillars of the illegitimate Roman Catholic Church.
2Co 6:14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
2Co 6:17 "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
Here's more info on why Piper is to be rejected: http://surphside.blogspot.com/2011/04/why-john-piper-should-be-rejected.html
I provide evidence as I have with Chandler and Chan along with Scripture's test.
Just as a quick note, Denise, you noted that:
"God does not use things of darkness to show us Truth."
That ignores the Greatest Truth that God ever revealed: His love and salvation through the death of Jesus Christ. Note this: God used *murder* to reveal His love. God does, indeed, use the things of darkness to show us Truth. Why? Because God is sovereign and in complete control. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that can thwart God. Not even evil.
What I meant is that God doesn't use demonic doctrines, practices, and teachers to teach Truth. 1 Cor. 2:14, Eph. 4:17-24, and Col. 2-3 show that Truth comes from Christ, not the world.
If you were familiar with my blog, you would know that I hold to the doctrines of God's sovereign grace and that necessitates His sovereign hand in all things including the death of His dear Son. The death of Christ, while at the hands of sinners, was really done by the Father:
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
But let's not forget that the cross of Christ, while showing God's love for His elect, also shows God's absolute wrath toward the sinners.
I hope this clarifies what I meant. Thank you for stopping by.
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