Monday, June 15, 2009

Women Teachers? Kay Arthur, Beth Moore, and Priscilla Shirer Believe In Teaching Men Too

***Update*** Beth Moore filled in the pulpit of Lou Giglio's church on Sunday July 1, 2012 and continues to demonstrate her violation of Scripture regarding women not teaching men or having authority (what more authority does one have but when standing behind a pulpit and teaching the Word of God?) over men. She is a feminist and is unable to rightly handle the Word of God.

**Update**

Upset with me because of this post? Please see the update at the bottom of this article.

Kay Arthur. Beth Moore. Priscilla Shirer.

Do you think these are women-only Bible teachers that are pretty solid? Most think so. But take a deeper look (pun intended) and you will find that these women not only violate clear Scripture about women teaching men, but they prove why God prohibits such a thing: they are promoting heresy, particularly that of the Emergent Church Movement like Contemplative Prayer, etc.

Teach Exclusively Women?

One thing that you will find when these women are talking, being quoted, or being touted, is that often it is said that they want "people" to know God, or "people" to know the Word, or they reach millions of "people" or 'households", showing that these women do not teach exclusively and solely to women only. This shows they are violating clear Scripture on the role of women and because they ignore what God says, they too, should be ignored (1Cor. 14) This should be a red flag to fans.

Beth Moore said in a video, “Several years ago Christ began to place a tremendous burden on my heart for the people of God to know the freedom of God.”

Kay Arthur's bio usually reads like this: "Kay reaches more than 80 million people daily through radio and TV and countless more through the Internet as the featured teacher on “Precepts for Life.” She and her husband Jack founded Precept Ministries International in 1970. Today, Precept teaches people in 150 countries and nearly 70 languages how to discover Truth for themselves." It doesn't describe her teaching to women, but "people".

Priscilla Shirer's bio says, "Priscilla is a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, with a Master's degree in Biblical Studies. She has been a conference speaker for major corporations, organizations, and Christian audiences across the United States and the world.In 1997, while in seminary, she received a request to facilitate a Bible study at Ziglar Training Systems in Dallas, Texas. It was that day that she met international motivational speaker Zig Ziglar, who became not only her friend but also her mentor. She was asked to come on board as one of the company's motivational speakers and corporate trainers. In this capacity, she has provided training and inspiration to hundreds of companies and their employees across the country and abroad. Still, her desire was simply to teach the Word of God to women. "

If these women taught women exclusively, it would be reflected all the time as such, but it isn't and for good reason. They all believe women can teach men.

Kay Arthur

Kay is one of the leading Bible teachers that is often thought of as solid and grounded in Scripture. This makes her more dangerous.

Kay Arthur taught a mixed audience at Worldview Weekend. The two sessions, "When A Nation does Not Listen To God" and "Standing Firm In the Last Days" were NOT restricted to women, as the description of the 2009 Conference and picture of the 2008 prove. In fact, at the bottom of the DVD cover it says "Recorded Live Before a Crowd of 2300 People, at the Branson Worldview Weekend Family Reunion 2009".

Arthur also spoke at an Emergent conference called Breakforth 2008 on "Spiritual Renewal". Arthur spoke at Breakforth 2008 Conference: Spiritual Renewal: Controlling the Mind, A Hill On which to Die, and Schlepping The Shepherd's Sheep; as well as 4 part series "Spiritual Renewal".. She shared the pulpit with ECM leaders Erwin McManus (this year's speakers included Chris Shay, Shane Claiborne, Scot McKnight, Leonard Sweet, showing its very Emergent). Audio and listing of her topics to buy here.

Arthur is to teach at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. This is a liberal seminary, where they have nine women teaching men (see also these articles ), psychoheresy as a field of study, the Charlotte campus is partnering with Salvation Army (anti-Christian).

Kay Arthur's tv show "Precepts for Life" won the 2009 National Religious Broadcaster's "Best TV Teaching Program", with no mention of teaching women, but " viewers" and "102 million households". Again, if she was exclusively teaching women, this would be mentioned, but she doesn't and therefore her show is not described as such. Neither does Arthur say things like "women, listen...." or "ladies, I know you might struggle with....". I've seen her show and she does not do this, nor is there any cautionary note at the beginning of the show that this is intended for a female audience. Same is true for her Precepts radio gig.

Arthur might teach at Women's conferences, but she does not teach women exclusively and this needs to be emphasized. Many women think she's solid, but how solid is a woman who teaches men? How much more clear must God be when He says in His Word, 1Ti 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet"?

Beth Moore

Again, touted as a woman who teaches women, many assume she teaches women exclusively. This isn't the case. She started out and continued for years, to teach men in her Sunday School class at church. Here's the proof from an archived page from her church's website back in 2004:

"Prior to Water's Edge, Beth taught a class for a small group of ladies that began in 1985. The group grew consistently and in 1997 a small number of men began to attend. At that time, God began to do a new thing, stirring the heart of Beth to move to a new meeting place, meeting time, change the name of the class, and allow men to attend. Since then, the class has changed locations several times to accommodate the growing number of singles and couples of all ages that come to hear the inspired teaching of God's Word.

"Beth Moore has been a Sunday School teacher at Houston's First Baptist Church since 1984. She began teaching an aerobics class/bible study combo to a small group of fortunate women. Now her class, minus aerobic activity, includes men and women, at all walks and stages of their lives."

Christianity Today article on Moore:

Quote:

"We had her at our church several years ago," says Holder, 60, a member of the large First Baptist Church of Orlando. "I sat there with my mouth hanging open. It took me two weeks to process everything."

"You know that she knows her [heavenly] Father and that it's not fake," Holder adds. "She shares some of her hurts and some of the things she's been through and how God still chose to use her. There's such freedom at her conferences. She says that God has a plan and purpose for each one of us, and that no matter who we are or where we have been, God wants us to live in total freedom."

Moore says her mission is to show Christians that the Bible "still speaks, still transforms, that it has the power to change lives."

Years ago, the work she did at her local church began on a much smaller scale. Friends now say that it was Moore's faithfulness in the small things that laid the foundation for the huge ministry she heads today.

Her calling eventually took on a larger dimension, as Moore stayed involved at First Baptist Church of Houston, a huge Southern Baptist congregation she joined in the early 1980s, and the place she now teaches a coed Sunday-school class of 600 members and leads a Tuesday-night Bible study that draws more than 3,000 women.

John Bisagno, the former pastor of First Baptist Houston, mentored Moore, He agrees that Moore's balanced approach has made her a stellar teacher.

Bisagno gave Moore opportunities to grow as a teacher by allowing her to speak regularly during the church's Sunday-evening services. Bisagno, who retired three years ago after pastoring in Houston for 30 years, says he can remember Moore frequently coming to him with questions about Scripture. "She would always come to me and ask if this or that was right," he recalls.

Moore wanted to make sure she knew her stuff, and Bisagno played a big role in her development. Their relationship stands out as unique in a denomination where leaders assert that women should not be pastors or hold prominent positions of leadership over men in a church.

Bisagno, however, said Moore never went against Southern Baptist beliefs. "Beth would be strong to tell you that she doesn't think a woman should be a preacher," he says.

Moore admits she steers clear of denominational issues. "My thing is discipleship," she says. "That's what I love and feel most called to. My part is very undenominational. I'm not really into the [Southern Baptist] political scene."

While Bisagno and others respect Moore as a prominent spiritual leader, her rise to celebrity status hasn't made life perfect for Moore. Along the way, she's faced deep pain.

End quote.

So far, we don't see Moore herself saying women aren't to be preachers, yet we have her preaching/teaching men every Sunday she's at her church. It appears Moore sees the role of women as merely a denominational and political issue, so rejecting denominationalism, she can ignore not only what the SBC states, more far more importantly, what God says about women teaching men. Very clever!

Photo of Moore talking to a couple at one of her conferences here.

Moore will be speaking to men and women at the Emergent friendly Passion 2010 conference (college age, which means grown men).

Moore will be speaking to a mixed audience at the leadership conference Influence Conference, in August 2009, sharing the platform with Sex- Obssessed, Modalist friendly Ed Young and ECM friendly Reggie Joiner.

Priscilla Shirer

She is the daughter of Tony Evans, promoter of generational curses. His views on sinning saints is off as well (proceed with caution on these websites).

Shirer's been heavily influenced by his teaching:

"My father is an extraordinary man, with an extraordinary purpose. God has used him all over the world to do wonderful things for the Kingdom of God. I have been privileged to sit under his anointed exegetical teaching of the Scriptures since I was a little girl. I am still a member at the church he founded and serves as senior pastor for over 30 years. In fact, all of my siblings are still members and now our children. "

She is part of this spectacle of nonsense of The Colour 2010 Conference (see the video which shows from last year). The founder's blurb says: "With a contagious zest for life, Bobbie (founder) passionately believes in the potential of all people and is devoted to the Cause of Christ. Her and Brian’s all consuming desire is to place value on humanity. To that end they labor to see healthy men, women and youth emerge across the landscape of the Church. "

The Conference page says "So keep following the sound... Heaven is watching, Humanity is waiting and today is the day of His glorious salvation across the earth."

This smacks of universal redemptio, however there is no page that explains their doctrine, statement of faith, or anything. Shirer will be a speaker next year again, alongside psychobabblist Dr Robi Sonderegger.

Women teaching men is A-OK :

To the question: "Priscilla, is it appropriate for women in ministry to have titles like “Reverend.” Can a woman be a pastor of a local church? What does the Scripture teach about women in ministry?" She answers:

Paul very specifically instructs Timothy in the positioning of women in the local church. He tells Timothy in relation to his work at the church at Ephesus, "let a woman quietly receive instruction with submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet" (1 Timothy 2:11-12). The Greek word used here for "quiet" does not mean to say absolutely nothing, but to be "settled down." Paul is saying that women need to "settle down" into the hierarchy that God has established and be comfortable with the position that they have been given in the local church. To try in any way to usurp this authority is to go against the roles He has established and created for the operation of the church. Paul's concern was not about their external title but about their internal level of submission.

Paul goes on to make it very clear in 1 Timothy 3 that the position of overseer of the church or elder is reserved for males when he continues to stress that these people be "men." He even goes so far as to say that they should be "the husband of one wife" (vs 2) which excludes women from this role. So although a woman's chosen title is of little concern to me, I do firmly believe that Scripture is clear in telling us that the position of senior pastor in the local church is reserved for men.

With that being said, I do not want to in any way diminish the great giftedness of women to teach and preach. Once again, in 1 Timothy 2:12, Paul said that he didn't want a woman to "exercise authority" over a man. His concern is that she understand and submit to the roles that God has established for men and women and the need for her to fall underneath the authority that God has set up in the local church. If a senior pastor has invited a woman to preach on a Sunday morning or to teach his congregation, then she is effectively under the leadership and the authority of that church and is free to operate in that realm. Remember, position and submission to authority is the issue here not the actual act of preaching or the title that someone has. If a woman feels that God has given her the freedom by God to teach and she is under the authority of the pastor of that church to do so, then she should.

End quote.

This Bible teacher conveniently ignores the whole verse:

1Tim. 2: 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 1Tim2: 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women  will be saved  through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

1Cor. 14: 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

Being silent would indicate what Paul has also said in 1Timothy: no teaching men. Period. Why? Because Eve was made second after Adam. She was not the leader, he was. She was deceived, Adam was not. The reason women are not to teach men is because they are far more easily led into deception, as we see with these three women, and then will lead others like Eve did.

Let's remember too: women are to submit to their "own husbands". Not the pastor, not elders, but their husband:

1Pe 3:5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands...

Col 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

If a woman who claims to be a Bible teacher cannot rightly handle the Word of God concerning women's roles, then how can she rightly handle anything else?

Women Pretending to Be Pastors Over Women--or pastor-less "house of God"?

Deeper Still in "a house of God" with three women preaching: video.

These women reflect a growing anti-biblical view of women's roles, that is self-contradictory, as relfected by Mark Driscoll, the beloved Reformed Filthy Goat-Herder: Source.

This is why these women either teach men in the audience (radio, seminar, tv, church) or they approve of those that do. This is a clear violation of God's command that women are not to have authority or teach men. How sneaky it is of famous Christian women to be famous for teaching men, but in reality do teach men and then justify their sin by claiming they are in submission to their husband or the pastor. If either the pastor or husband tells them its ok for them to teach men, they are also violating clear Scripture as Adam did. Pastors do NOT have the authority to violate Scripture by allowing a woman to teach men.

This is not to be tolerated, no matter how many ways around the command they try. At the end of the day, they are still not submitting to the Master who said they can't teach men.

Contemplative Mysticism
Kay Arthur, Beth Moore, and Priscilla Shirer are helping to promote Eastern Mysticism by their participation in the "Deeper Still" dvd/conferences (sequal to the Mystical "Be Still And Know" dvd put out a few years ago).

Spoke at an Emergent conference:

Arthur spoke at Breakforth 2008 Conference: Spiritual Renewal: Controlling the Mind, A Hill On which to Die, and Schlepping The Shepherd's Sheep; as well as 4 part series "Spiritual Renewal".. She shared the pulpit with ECM leader Erwin McManus (this year's speakers included Chris Shay, Shane Claiborne, Scot McKnight, Leonard Sweet, showing its very Emergent). Promo.

Standby for Precepts to become more Emergent Friendly when son David Arthur takes over. Note at the bottom of the article his "favorite author": The Message author and huge ECM leader, Eugene Peterson. His education also includes a Master's degree from liberal Reformed Theological Seminary.

**Update***

Kay Arthur has signed an eccumenical/inter-faith document, the Manhattan Declaration, which states that Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Evangelicals are united in Christ Jesus, all for the cause of social concerns. By doing so, she has rejected the non-negotiables of salvation and justification by faith alone in Christ alone, just to have a larger voice on social concerns. So much for Truth that truly frees.

Before you comment....

Did you read my whole article carefully? Or did you just skim it and got upset because you saw your favorite public teacher/author being tested against Scripture? Do you know how she fails the test? If you don't, you didn't bother to read the entire article where I've laid out with multiple examples of why these women are unbiblical and violate Scripture both in doctrine and in practice.

As King David so clearly professed (in Ps. 139 for example), we should be angry with what makes God angry; be offended when God is offended. If you have an issue, its not with me but God. HE has already spoken.

And remember this: if you are tolerant of these women and defend them even though they violate Scripture both in doctrine and practice, you should at least be consistant and show me the same tolerance and acceptance, right?

***Update***

For solid teaching on the proper role of women in the church and in marriage (I gave plenty of Scriptures on this), I would recommend John MacArthur's articles.

"God's High Call For Women"

"God's High Call For Women" the entire series available to read or  to listen

"The Biblical Portrait of Women: Setting the Record Straight"

I also recommend Elizabeth George  and Martha Peace, who are both Christian authors that discuss being biblical women.

68 comments:

Big D said...

The first thing I have to say is, "wow." I would expect this kind of attitude from a man, but a woman? Wow. Your name is "Denise" right? I'm assuming I read that correctly.
Please consider with me this thought,what if a man were to read THIS blog ie your "opinion" about women teaching men, and then he actually learned something (Biblical) from YOU? You would have "taught" a man. Shouldn't you stop writing blogs (using scripture) on the internet lest you inadvertently "teach" a man? Ruh roh, looks like you're in danger of doing the very thing you are judging others for....
It's ok if you don't post this, I just want you to think about what you are saying here. By the way, you seem to be a little hostile toward those women who are doing this "heretical" thing. We need to love and pray for those who are "deceived..." I'm just saying... Sincerely, D. H. PS Please email me if you would like to correspond further about this subject, thanks.

Denise said...

Hello Big D,

Well, you aren't the first person to bring this issue up and I'm sure you won't be the last.

If I do not support my views by Scripture, then where is the validity in what I believe? It would be just mere opinion, wouldn't it? Opinions are nothing, Scripture is everything. Therefore if I state something to be doctrinally true, I need to show where it is in Scripture. More importantly, what I believe should be from Scripture, not the other way around.

What I do on my blog isn't what Arthur, Moore, or any other woman teacher does. I don't get paid, I'm not a teacher of Scripture to men and women, I don't stand in front of an audience with my Bible open, exegeting Scripture. Learning from others is not the same as being a public teacher of both men and women (biblical teaching should be done in the local church where accountability is).

The blogosphere is hardly the same thing as standing behind a pulpit with Scripture open, teaching men and women. My blog is not a teaching blog, and I certainly hold no authority over others. I don't sit here AS a teacher, WITH authority, exegeting Scripture. I make statements, observations, and conclusions filtered through Scripture (some things are clearly my opinions). What I do is a far cry from proclaiming one's self as a teacher for all people, of Scripture. Defending the Truth isn't the same as being a teacher...we know that elders are to be teaching their churches, and that not many should be teachers:Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
Women are allowed by God to teach women and children (Titus 2, Prov. 31) but not men per the verses I posted in the article. I don't know if you have studied them or not, but I did post them and they are HIS Words, not mine. A passage that might be interesting and helpful to you is 1Cor.14:33-38.

I wonder why you seem to take me on, but not those who defend or actually violate clear Scripture regarding women teaching men?

Lindsay said...

It is evident that the spirit of God is ACTIVELY working in their lives, so let him deal with it if He so desires. May He also speak to you!

Lindsay said...

Also, Beth Moore did comment:
Beth Moore's response on 4/11/05 concerning her teaching of men (italics are mine):

"Thank you for your inquiry about my stand on women teaching men. As you may know, the ministry to which God has called me is geared to women. My conference and weekly Bible Studies are entirely focused upon women. The only exception to an entirely female audience is my Sunday School class. Men continue to come and sit in the back. We never sought them but did not know how to deal with them. Would Christ have thrown them out? I just didn’t know. I handed the problem over to my pastor and under his authority, he said to allow anyone to come who chooses. I have wrestled with this and the Lord finally said to me, “I tell you what, Beth, you worry about what I tell you to say, and I’ll worry about who listens.” My ministry is to women. That’s where my heart is. I make no bones about it. But what if men come and sit down? Do we stop and throw them out? I really don’t know. I just placed myself under the authority of my husband, my pastor, and my God. Your servant, Beth Moore"

Denise said...

Lindsay,

Yeah, that was addressed here: http://www.biblebb.com/files/tonyqa/tc05-187.htm

The problem is that dispite her response, 1) she continues to teach men, and 2) God didn't tell her to do so, for He never directs a Christian against His Word. If men come in and sit down, she needs to ask them to leave or she needs to stop teaching. Scripture is clear on this. If her pastor "allowed" it, then her pastor was violating Scripture too. We are to obey God rather than man.

Denise said...

Lindsay,

God has already spoken clearly about this issue: those who do not heed His commands are not bowing to HIS lordship and therefore are in sin. To violate one of the clearest commands of Scripture is to be blind spiritually. God is not honored when women toss out HIS Word and try to usurp authority over. It actually reveals a deeper problem: a low view of Scripture, a high view of Man,amont other things.

Big D said...

I am thoroughly amazed at your zeal on this issue! The saddest part of it is that your interpretation of scripture is in error. That's right, I used the word "interpretation." Your zeal is without knowledge. At the least you are robbing women and men of what the Spirit might be saying, and at the worst, you are quenching, possibly blaspheming the Holy Spirit! What if you are actually found to be fighting against the TRUTH instead of defending it? Is this possible? If I may just bring your attention to the spiritual gifts in the Church. There are simply no qualifying regulations or lists that accompany those who receive (any of) the gifts such as prophesy, or evangelism or teaching...The one and only qualification is that a person is a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. In that position, working in the Church, working within those gifts, there is freedom for Greek and Jew, male or female, slave or free, etc. Please consider your stand on this as you examine your strong reactions to women teaching men. I only know of the one woman you cited in your original blog, Kay Arthur, but she is an anointed teacher of the WORD OF GOD. I have learned so much from the gift of God that flows through her. She has an absolute love and respect for the Word of God, as do I. There have been men in many of the (Kay Arthur) classes I have attended and they have benefited as well.
IN closing, whether it be through a male or female vessel, it is the Holy Spirit, indeed the Word HIMSELF who does the teaching, Who equips the Body, Who is glorified.... I beg you to examine where you stand. You may just find that instead of freely standing on the ROCK of Christ, you are actually (unknowingly) being held captive by the CEMENT of stubbornness. With respect, Denise aka Big D

Denise said...

Big D,

Perhaps you haven't taken the time to study the passages of Scripture I've already given that states women are NOT to have spiritual authority nor teach spiritual things to men. God does not anoint nor honor anyone who rebels against HIS commands. I also hope you go back to the article and look up the verses I use there as well.

It seems you've fallen for feminism which is a sin and is diammetrically opposed to God's design (see Gen. 3 as well as Prov. 31, 1Tim. 3; Titus 1-2; 1Cor. 14).

Nina said...

Thanks Surph for a well written article on a difficult topic. I realize some of your readers assume that having the gift of teaching means one must employ those gifts towards men contrary to what the Bible teaches. Also some wrongly , to defend that position .. will go on to attack the ability of a woman to say anything on a topic lest she be "teaching" men .. simply by voicing her opinions which is not teaching(unless we were to call ALL communication=teaching). The old duct tape defense meant to silence another's view (ironic indeed). Keep up the good work and stand strong!

Denise said...

Thank you Nina for the encouragement. The irony really is amazing.

LaCee said...

Some of the most annointed people that I know are women. This is merely my opinion but could women maybe having to step up because more often then not men are spirtually lazy? I'm not going against the word I am simply asking a question. I'm also not sayin that all men are spirtually lazy. Have you ever heard the saying the power of a praying woman? I wonder if more men would be as unashamed as women if the world wouldn't be in the shape it is today. I agree that women shouldn't teach men it is clearly in the bible, but if men aren't going to step up who is to do the job?

Denise said...

Hi LaCree,

I agree with you--generally speaking there are many spiritually lazy, cowardly, or indifferent men.

Because God doesn't ever go against His Word, He would not ordain women leading men spiritually. I really believe that if women (and churches) want to be faithful to God and His Word, the women need to hold back, keep in their valuable and proper role, and TRUST God to bring in men who will lead. So really, its a trust issue. This would have to begin within their marriages (submission to their husbands) and then the churches, if you see what I mean.

Because of the curse as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, its hard for women, including me, to fight the flesh and submit as we are called to do....but its what we must do if we are submitting to God and His Word.

I think God honors women who, instead of jumping in and taking the leadership reigns, but rather submit and honor their husbands (1Peter 3; Prov. 31). Because its hard it shows its really a spiritual issue, since we're dealing with our flesh.

Remember too, God always has a remnent. =)

As regard to the power of a praying women, I believe that first, prayer doesn't change anything except ourselves in falling in line with God's will and seeking Him; showing our utter dependence upon the Lord. He already has the future planned out (Eph. 1:11). I don't believe that gender is an issue in prayer. What matters is that we understand we can't manipulate God with our prayers and that He is the Sovereign Master, not us, if you see what I mean.

Thanks for your questions and stopping by!

DMAC said...

All I can say is FINALLY someone that has "discernment" !! Yeah!! I am so tired of lukewarm, contemplative,unbiblical,sarcastic,wolves in sheeps clothing commenting on TRUTH from Gods Word...FACT: what does the Bible say about women teaching men..TRUTH: God forbid!! God said it, I believe it, that settles it. In these "last days" this sort of thing will wax worse and worse. Don't dare "touch" the anointed popular teachers that are in rebellion against God and His Word. You go girl!! Do they not know that when "teachers" speak publicly...they can also be "rebuked" publicly. Paul said it and did it, in truth. If we love His Word, we will defend His Word no matter what comes.

FunMoms said...

You scare me as do others who think they have complete and perfect understanding of God.

Please be quiet and say some prayers for yourself and the world instead of writing stuff like this.

Denise said...

FunMom,

First of all your assumption that everyone needs to have complete and perfect understanding of God is a ridiculous argument. Rather, Christians ARE required to KNOW the Truth, as Jesus said (John 14: 1Peter), which is why He gave us Scripture and local churches to be under the teaching of the Word. We are to grow in it.

We are told repeatedly by Scripture about what we ARE to believe and hold fast to(the Truth), and what we are NOT to believe and NOT hold fast to (error). Clearly you haven't studied Scripture on men's and women's roles, but the Word is very clear: women are not to teach men in church nor have authority over them and that they are to submit to their husbans. Feminism is not biblical.

Secondly, as a typical liberal, your emotionalism and hypocrisy demands me to be quiet while YOU can slam me on my own blog?

Seriously?

Its you who needs to be silent, since your view is in violation of God's authoritative Word. Its you who needs to submit to it.

1Tim. 2: 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 1Tim2: 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

1Cor. 14:35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

Lastly, instead of telling me to shut and and pray for myself, have YOU done the same? Have you prayed for yourself or for me?

Liam said...

Hi Denise, I find your blog stimulating and want to read more.
In one of your replies you mentioned feminism and how right you are, i believe feminism was ushered in by satan and it has caused great damage to the family.
Keep up the truth.

Carol said...

Denise, thank you for your article. I have always loved Kay Arthur and have studied her books. However, some time ago I began to question her(and Beth Moore) teaching men and even tho it hurts to admit it, these women are not following scripture. When our Father says something, He means it, and He doesn't make exceptions unless He notes it in His word. the problem is that the body of believers is asleep today and there is a lack of discernment that is causing many that use to be solid in the word, to be going against that very word. Take care Denise, and don't let any discouraging words get to you. Our Father has raised up people like you to point out the sins in His church. It is called contending for the faith-and YOU are NOT teaching men-you are pointing out error and this is scriptural.

Denise said...

Carol,

Thank you for your kind encouragement. I used to enjoy Kay Arthur too...it really is such a dissappointment, for sure.

May we who are in Christ, be loyal to Him no matter what the cost.

coolgirl95 said...

I think it's sad that you twist Scripture the way you do. I think you are the Pharisees of whom Jesus spoke and the false prophets Paul slammed. God can speak through anyone at anytime and in any place. And if a person finds salvation through a woman - is that salvation less valid than if led by the preaching of a man? I think not.

Denise said...

Coolgirl,

I've shown from Scripture what God has said. His commands are not options, nor does God act contrary to His Word. God's Word is "faithful and true" (Rev. 3:14;21:15;22:6;Ps. 19; Ps 119)

and Jesus is called Faithful and True:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.


Cool, what you are doing is saying that God and His Word are untrustworthy and not faithful. That is a high charge against the God of Scripture who Himself says:

Ps. 138:2 b "for you have exalted above all things your name and your word."

"For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." Malachi 3:6

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

God hasn't changed His standards nor His Word.

Why to you rail against God's commands Cool? Don't call Him Lord if you are unwilling to live by His commands.

Denise said...

Also, I might add Cool (and please read my first response to you), all Christians are to proclaim the Gospel to the lost. That's not the issue here. The issue is about women having authority and teaching over men, which God prohibits. The other issue would be how you define the gospel?

Liam said...

Coolgirl95,
Have you studied this subject? the point here is wether God wants woman to preach the bible to men. So when we want to know God's will for the Church we first look to his word.
Can you show me any scripture to say woman can and should preach to men?
Thanks
Liam

Liam said...

Coolgirl95,
Can you show scripture that says woman can preach to men?
Thanks.
Liam.

Troy and Penny Taylor said...

Where does the man's responsibility come into play? If men knew and followed scripture then why are these men on there own accord placing themselves under the teaching of a woman. None of these events are required or in the context of a "pastoral" role -thus it is a followers choice to place themselves under these women's teaching/authority. I am not challenging your biblical view, just that you are not being fair to only put the blame on the women.

Denise said...

Penny,

I said in the article:

After the posting of 1Tim. 2:11-5 and 1Cor. 14:33-38, I said:

Being silent would indicate what Paul has also said in 1Timothy: no teaching men. Period. Why? Because Eve was made second after Adam. She was not the leader, he was. She was deceived, Adam was not. The reason women are not to teach men is because they are far more easily led into deception, as we see with these three women, and then will lead others like Eve did.

This is why these women either teach men in the audience (radio, seminar, tv, church) or they approve of those that do. This is a clear violation of God's command that women are not to have authority or teach men. How sneaky it is of famous Christian women to be famous for teaching men, but in reality do teach men and then justify their sin by claiming they are in submission to their husband or the pastor. If either the pastor or husband tells them its ok for them to teach men, they are also violating clear Scripture as Adam did. Pastors do NOT have the authority to violate Scripture by allowing a woman to teach men.

This is not to be tolerated, no matter how many ways around the command they try. At the end of the day, they are still not submitting to the Master who said they can't teach men.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/tonyqa/tc05-187.htm Tony Capoccia states it well:

Quote:

My response: "I cannot agree with Beth or her pastor's reasoning. God's Word is clear: women are not to teach men in a Church setting or ministry. God's Word is not to be ignored by circumstances. God did not say, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent, except if men come on their own, or if your pastor says it's fine." [1 Timothy 2:12]

We cannot ignore the clear teaching of Scripture. In this case there are three sinning: The men for coming; the pastor for not stopping them; and Beth for continuing to teach. All Beth would have had to say to the men is, "My dear brothers, I ask that you not come to my class, for that would dishonor my God. If you will not leave then I cannot teach." That would have solved the problem in a biblical and Christ honoring way.

The story of Uzzah is a reminder that when God says something He means it and circumstances don't negate His Word: "When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD'S anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God." [2 Sam 6:6-7]

Uzzah meant well, he was trying to help God by keeping the ark from being damaged, but God shows us that obedience is more important then our human wisdom."

End quote.

God will hold men who place themselves under the teaching of women accountable for violating the Kings command. As they sit there being taught by women, they are in rebellion against God as much as the woman who is doing the teaching of the men. The laziness, apathy, and rebellion of men is as much the problem as the woman who usurp the men's approprate roles.

Denise said...

Penny,

I said in the article:

After the posting of 1Tim. 2:11-5 and 1Cor. 14:33-38, I said:

Being silent would indicate what Paul has also said in 1Timothy: no teaching men. Period. Why? Because Eve was made second after Adam. She was not the leader, he was. She was deceived, Adam was not. The reason women are not to teach men is because they are far more easily led into deception, as we see with these three women, and then will lead others like Eve did.

This is why these women either teach men in the audience (radio, seminar, tv, church) or they approve of those that do. This is a clear violation of God's command that women are not to have authority or teach men. How sneaky it is of famous Christian women to be famous for teaching men, but in reality do teach men and then justify their sin by claiming they are in submission to their husband or the pastor. If either the pastor or husband tells them its ok for them to teach men, they are also violating clear Scripture as Adam did. Pastors do NOT have the authority to violate Scripture by allowing a woman to teach men.

This is not to be tolerated, no matter how many ways around the command they try. At the end of the day, they are still not submitting to the Master who said they can't teach men.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/tonyqa/tc05-187.htm Tony Capoccia states it well:

Quote:

My response: "I cannot agree with Beth or her pastor's reasoning. God's Word is clear: women are not to teach men in a Church setting or ministry. God's Word is not to be ignored by circumstances. God did not say, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent, except if men come on their own, or if your pastor says it's fine." [1 Timothy 2:12]

We cannot ignore the clear teaching of Scripture. In this case there are three sinning: The men for coming; the pastor for not stopping them; and Beth for continuing to teach. All Beth would have had to say to the men is, "My dear brothers, I ask that you not come to my class, for that would dishonor my God. If you will not leave then I cannot teach." That would have solved the problem in a biblical and Christ honoring way.

The story of Uzzah is a reminder that when God says something He means it and circumstances don't negate His Word: "When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD'S anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God." [2 Sam 6:6-7]

Uzzah meant well, he was trying to help God by keeping the ark from being damaged, but God shows us that obedience is more important then our human wisdom."

End quote.

God will hold men who place themselves under the teaching of women accountable for violating the Kings command. As they sit there being taught by women, they are in rebellion against God as much as the woman who is doing the teaching of the men. The laziness, apathy, and rebellion of men is as much the problem as the woman who usurp the men's approprate roles.

Denise said...

Penny,

I said in the article:

After the posting of 1Tim. 2:11-5 and 1Cor. 14:33-38, I said:

Being silent would indicate what Paul has also said in 1Timothy: no teaching men. Period. Why? Because Eve was made second after Adam. She was not the leader, he was. She was deceived, Adam was not. The reason women are not to teach men is because they are far more easily led into deception, as we see with these three women, and then will lead others like Eve did.

This is why these women either teach men in the audience (radio, seminar, tv, church) or they approve of those that do. This is a clear violation of God's command that women are not to have authority or teach men. How sneaky it is of famous Christian women to be famous for teaching men, but in reality do teach men and then justify their sin by claiming they are in submission to their husband or the pastor. If either the pastor or husband tells them its ok for them to teach men, they are also violating clear Scripture as Adam did. Pastors do NOT have the authority to violate Scripture by allowing a woman to teach men.

This is not to be tolerated, no matter how many ways around the command they try. At the end of the day, they are still not submitting to the Master who said they can't teach men.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/tonyqa/tc05-187.htm Tony Capoccia states it well:

Quote:

My response: "I cannot agree with Beth or her pastor's reasoning. God's Word is clear: women are not to teach men in a Church setting or ministry. God's Word is not to be ignored by circumstances. God did not say, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent, except if men come on their own, or if your pastor says it's fine." [1 Timothy 2:12]

We cannot ignore the clear teaching of Scripture. In this case there are three sinning: The men for coming; the pastor for not stopping them; and Beth for continuing to teach. All Beth would have had to say to the men is, "My dear brothers, I ask that you not come to my class, for that would dishonor my God. If you will not leave then I cannot teach." That would have solved the problem in a biblical and Christ honoring way.

The story of Uzzah is a reminder that when God says something He means it and circumstances don't negate His Word: "When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD'S anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God." [2 Sam 6:6-7]

Uzzah meant well, he was trying to help God by keeping the ark from being damaged, but God shows us that obedience is more important then our human wisdom."

End quote.

God will hold men who place themselves under the teaching of women accountable for violating the Kings command. As they sit there being taught by women, they are in rebellion against God as much as the woman who is doing the teaching of the men. The laziness, apathy, and rebellion of men is as much the problem as the woman who usurp the men's approprate roles.

Brani said...

You wrote, "Being silent would indicate what Paul has also said in 1Timothy: no teaching men. Period."
But "silence" does not mean "absence of teaching;" it means "absence of sound." If you really wanted to take Paul's words seriously, shouldn't you also be against women singing, praying, or saying any words at all in church? If you reply that Paul's rule about "silence" doesn't apply to prayer and singing, why do you think it applies to teaching/preaching?

Denise said...

Brani,

Given the context of Paul's teaching regarding men and women, its clear that the issue is about forbidding women to teach men or have authority over them.

Brani said...

This response had to be in 3 parts due to its length.
Part 1
Denise,
First, let me apologize for my hasty and quick comments last time. I should have been more courteous in my first remarks to someone whom I have never met. And I appreciate your willingness to discuss and even post dissenting opinions on your site.
I respectfully disagree. You say, “given the context…it’s clear that the issue is about forbidding women to teach mean or have authority over them.” In fact, it’s hard to find any particular context for 1 Tim 2. In 1 Tim 2:1, Paul urges “petitions, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving” for everyone, even rulers. Verse 2 explains these prayers help (or having something to do) us live quiet and peaceful lives. Verse 3 says these prayers please God. Verse 4- God wants everyone to be saved. Verse 5- There’s one God and mediator (possibly making some sort of connection between us saying intercessory prayers for all people, but I’m honestly not entirely clear on Paul’s logic with this verse). Verse 6- This one God/Mediator was a ransom and people witnessed it. Verse 7- Paul was appointed to “herald” this Good News, especially to the Gentiles. Verse 8- We’re back where we started in verse 1, with the topic of prayer. I assume Paul is really instructing all people, not just “men.” But to immediately follow this instruction with one that pertains only to women does make me wonder if this verse really is directed only to men. Verse 9- Seemingly out of left field, Paul switches from the topic of prayer to the topic of modest dress for women. Verse 10- ‘Clothe yourself’ with good deeds. Verse 11- A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. Verse 12- Women shouldn’t teach or assume authority over men. Verse 13- Adam was formed first.
Verse 14- Eve was deceived first. Regarding this verse you write, “She was deceived, Adam was not.” But I wonder if 13-15 actually means something deeper than the black and white words on the page. Before your scoff at the idea, remember that the “deeper meaning” view was on the table for Paul when he interpreted Scripture. For example, we read Deut 25:4 as a clear instruction about oxen treading grain and Paul basically calls that interpretation silly (my paraphrase version ) when he asks, “God is not concerned about oxen, is He?” (1 Cor 9:9, NASB). Or we think we’re just reading a narrative of some historical events about Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar when Paul blows us out of the water with his commentary on the passage:
These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother (Gal 4:24-26).

Denise said...

Brani,

Its ok, no worries. I'd like you to go and listen to or read the series John MacArthur did on this very topic.

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermon+Series/152_Gods-High-Calling-for-Women

Ana Baptist said...

If your husband supports women preaching, should a wife support him in that opinion?

Denise said...

Ana,

To answer your question, no, a wife should not support her husband's unbiblical viewor practice (if he were attending/giving money to the ministry). We are Christians first and foremost and our loyalty goes to Christ. If a wife's husband is supporting a woman preacher, he needs to be challenged with Scripture, because this is a clear issue in Scripture. If he does not listen, there are other issues involved and an elder should talk with him.

Kaye said...

Very well documented with evidence of men attending, and I assume listening to, the teachings of these women. I am wondering why, to be consistent, you did not put a huge caution at the top of the posting. There should be a statement before any of your writing that informs the reader you are a woman and "MEN SHOULD NOT READ FURTHER." You clearly are gifted as a teacher and you use the scriptures to support a doctrinal position, which men have been reading and agreeing with. You seem to have violated your own standards?

Denise said...

Kay,

Thank you for stopping by and for your comments, which I will consider. However, this blog isn't really a teaching blog, but mainly just a place where I give links and information about politics and things going on in "Christianity" today. As a blog, there isn't any authority I have over men at all.

winnowraphael said...

i ask The lord for wisdom in this matter.the apostle paul teaches that for wisdom and instruction,go to the scripures(the old testament)i am in the days of deborah as a judge.?i am standing in front of moses and his wife and she tells him,"thou art a bloody husband to me"after circumcising their son.something he was suppose to and did not do and of the which God sought to kill him for.? i don't want to miss the mark and i am asking God about these things.do women prophesy in front of men at any given moment and do men learn something of the Lord from this?does it make a difference if it is planned or unplanned?i am not a prommoter of women teaching men.i am asking God,if he gives me a word that the sodomites are in your house.you dine with them.sup with them.through abc,nbc,cbs.it's the "fox"network.if a man is present or it is only a man who comes to my desk at walmart,do i withhold this instruction.do i tell him elvis is the king,buried in graceland and risen again.a shadow of the antichrist.RUN.if i see a woman standing at the bottom of an elevatorshaft.i should warn her.if it is a man i should not?these be the days and i weep for my nation.great sorrows are coming to america.as a woman.what He whispers in my ear,do i shout it on the rooftop?in ezekiel i read it says watchman.it doesn't say watchwoman.again i ask what about deborah.what about zipporah actions that spared moses from the wrath of God that day?what say you Lord Jesus.thks.

Denise said...

Winnow,

Although I couldn't totally follow your comments, I can see you are unsure of a few things. I would encourage you to study the verses of Scripture I've posted in the article.

Here is more info for you:


http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/womensroles.htm :

Thus, the Bible begins by establishing both the equality of men and women and also the support role of the wife. Many other Old Testament passages support these two themes of equality and submission for women (i.e., Ex. 21:15, 17, 28-31; Num. 6:2; 5:19, 20, 29; 30:1-16).

Women were active in the religious life of Israel throughout the Old Testament, but generally they were not leaders--with a few exceptions. Women like Deborah (Jud. 4), however, clearly were the exception and not the rule. In fact, Isaiah 3:12 in its context of God's judgment on unbelieving and disobedient Israel indicates that God allowed weak leaders, either masculine women or effeminate men, to rule as a part of His judgment on the sinning nation.

Galatians 3:28--"Their is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Feminists interpret this verse to refer to an equality which is both theological, regarding men and women’s standing before God, and also social, regarding all of their relationships in day-to-day living.

If one wants to arrive at pro-feminist conclusions, there are a limited number of ways to interpret the biblical context in order to reach such a position. These four are the alternatives which feminists have devised thus far.

Adam was created first, and Eve was later created as a helper for him rather than their being created simultaneously and independent of each other. Eve was deceived and led her husband into sin rather than submitting to his leadership. If the reason for the woman's submission is related to the creation and the fall, than it is not something which can change from year to year and culture to culture. Rather, it is a universal principle.

Each alternative has serious flaws which cause the Christian, in the process of feminist interpretation, to sacrifice either a high view of inspiration of Scripture or else to use a false hermeneutic, or principle for interpreting Scripture. Either is too high a price to pay. All of these exegetical gymnastics become necessary just to force the Pauline passages to harmonize with the feminist interpretation of Galatians 3:28. If Galatians 3:28 were interpreted correctly in context to refer to the fundamental standing of men and women before God, and if the feminists did not totally reject any concept of authority and submission, harmony of all the biblical material on the subject would be rather simple.

End quote.

christelle said...

While I am in complete agreement that a woman should never be a Pastor of a church of a church leader, I wonder how you would scripturally justify the role of Priscilla wife of Aquilla.

The bible is clear that she and her husband assisted Paul in evangelizing. Paul never says she spoke "only" to women.

We must take the word in ALL of its context. We KNOW God speaks to women as the Old Testament gives reference to prohettes(sp?). God loves order and always has purpose, we know that from scripture as well. God would not speak to a woman if he had no intention of using said woman to His glory.

Can Godly women like Beth, Kay and Priscilla stop men from listening....No they can not. Even if they stopped and asked them to leave, as you suggested, they can not stop them from listening to recordings or even watching them on youtube. I have never seen any of the three refer to themselves as ministers or pastors. They run women based ministries, the all are subserviant to their husbands. I see no touch of feminism in these women,

We must follow scripture ...yes that is a fact but we must also be careful in how we read the bible. We can take a few verses and "make them" say almost anything, the Bible must be taken in whole with the Holy Spirit as our guide.

I would also like to caution you....my sister....as I hear a lot of anger in your posts. The bible tells us if we have a problem with out brother (or in this case sister) we take it to our brother. Have you emailed any of these women?? Have you attempted to speak to them directly? If you have, did you then take it to the elders so they could deal with the situation?

By your own admission you have gone against scripture in that you are publicly renouncing your sisters in Christ. In such a world as we live today, let us as christians band together against the dark that is headed our way.

Denise said...

Christelle,

When women willingly teach men as these women do, its not godly, its ungodly. Its directly violating God's command for women. Scripture is crystal clear about this, as I've posted.

Christians need to stop supporting or defending such opposition to Scripture.

The case of Priscilla was that she was with her husband, and she was not in authority or teaching over men, but evangelizing alongside her husband, literally.

The other issue is bad doctrine and getting involved in unbiblical conferences. They are showing they are not following Scripture, again, as I have posted.

Public teachers are to be dealt with publicly. We are to caution others against false teachers and call Christians to examine everything. As Christians we are not to pick through the garbage to find something edible. Rather, we're to go to the pure milk and avoid those who bring error drapped in truth.

ron lindo said...

I love this article. This is very cool. My name is Ron Lindo Jr. I will be praying for you.

Don said...

Excellent post, Denise!

Thanks for contending for the Truth, and graciously taking the heat. "Jude 3 (ESV)...I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints"...

I find it amazing that only 1 or 2 of the angry people who "feel" there's nothing wrong with disobeying Scripture as long as they see "good results" (pragmatism) even tried to bring Scripture into their argument, but even they failed to make any sense for their outright rejection of the passages in question.

Sadly, for the majority of so called "Christians" today, it seems how "I feel" trumps "thus saith the Lord"...

Denise said...

Thank you Don for your encouragement and I totally agree! Pragmatism abounds even while its rebelling against God's faithful and true Word.

cin.din said...

Hi Denise,
Thank you for standing up for truth. So can you recommend any female bible teachers who don't violate Scripture? I'm having a really hard time finding any.

Denise said...

cin,

Thanks for your encouragement and stopping by. Its very hard to find good women authors who don't violate Scripture but there's a few I know about: Martha Peace and Elizabeth George (so far I haven't heard of Elizabeth George teaching men in any setting). Lisa Hughes is another one you can check out. Blessings!

Catherine said...

I grew up with Dallas Theological teachers, Tony Evans, yes, Beth Moore (I grew up in Houston) and later went to Charismatic churches looking for the "truth." All I can say is, "You know a tree by its fruit," and the fruit of the above is generally pretty rotten. After getting pretty badly hurt by these "shepherds," I finally asked myself what was wrong. God's answer to me was "They aren't following God." I was stunned, but when I checked it out, it backs up with Scripture. There are many false prophets, and most have many awards and popularity. They talk the talk, but most are not true disciples or overcomers. "Anyone who wants to live a godly life will be persecuted." Even in America. "Woe to you when men speak well of you, for that is how they treated the false prophets." I saw on wiki that Kay rubs elbows with definite false teachers (in ecumenical movement.) Red flag. Your blog backs up what I suspect.

Sorry long comment. I just really wanted to encourage you. I know God let me go through s#$% from these bad shepherds to know that 1. they do exist 2. warn others. People who haven't had these bad experiences in church are clueless, deceived, and lost. They probably sincerely believe a lie. I was once like them too. Believing whatever I heard or whatever someone said. I was also pretty bible ignorant. I needed to get my bible commentary out to "be fed" because these false teachers make the bible so hard to understand (by twisting scripture). They refute that the bible says what it really says (thanks to Dallas Theological Seminary teachings).

Now I have a Greek-English interlinear and the Holy Spirit is teaching me how to "unlearn" what I was taught in many churches.

We must continue to speak out, even though they will misunderstand our intentions and call us some pretty bad names. We do it all out of love, since we want the best for them. We don't want them to be hurt spiritually from false teaching. The teachings always have a snow ball effect: they might look okay, but something a little off can end up going way, really far off when taken to its logical extreme conclusion, which is why we must test everything and be very careful. You plant a tiny seed, you end up with a large tree. Knowledge is the seed, faith is the soil, and our actions are the fruit. Better hope your faith is in the truth (not a lie)!

Last note: these false teachers have "a form of godliness, but deny its power-- have nothing to do with them!" It's because they appear "godly" that they are more dangerous-- people let their guards down and trust them. In Jude, the examples of false teachers include Baalam, Cain and Korah-- men who appeared godly but inside were corrupt (loved money, power, and approval). Korah was a church leader (Levite, hierarchy). Balaam was a spokesperson for the Lord. Cain was a worshipper of God. Wolves in sheep's clothing.

It's very hard to have discernment nowadays. Most don't tell you, "Hi, my name is Jane and I'm a false prophet." No, they quote Scripture and write books about God. So we have to figure it out using the Word, which means we have to know what the Bible really says, which means investing time and energy on our own-- or we will be deceived. The Bible, when read correctly, does not tickle our ears, but boy is it Words of Life!

Keep up the good work!

Catherine said...

Thank you for your post. I was curious to learn more about Kay Arthur after reading some of her (false) teaching on a different point, regarding SALVATION. She was badly misquoting Scripture (and as a result, misrepresenting the nature of God). But I thought to myself, "She seems like such a nice person who is so sincere for the Lord. Could such a nice woman really be wrong?" After all, check her bio: missionary to Mexico, prayer warrior, humble and submissive servant (according to Wikipedia).

Thanks for helping me clarify (aka discern) that just because someone is sincere, they can be sincerely wrong!

Denise said...

Hi Catherine,

First let me say thank you for stopping by and for taking the time to write me. Also, its amazing how similar your thoughts/experience was to mine. When God led me out of the Charismatic movement, He placed me at John MacArthur's church, where for the first time in all my life (I was in college), I was learing to read Scripture in its context! I can't tell you how many times I had those "light bulb" moments and thought, "Oh man, had I only read the context, I would've understood that verse!" The Charismatic movement, among others, are notorious for ripping Scripture out and misinterpret it for their own gain. I'm so glad God delivered me from all of that horrible stuff and I'd never want to go back, but I'm glad for the lessons He taught; namely to value Scripture above all else (Ps. 138:2).

You are so right about testing everything and speaking out. We can only know if what we hear and read is of God or not if we know Scripture to test it. Sometimes error is so subtle that its not what a false teacher says necessarily, but also what they don't say, that makes them false (ie, not talk about sin, repentance, the wrath of God, His holiness, etc). Spurgeon once stated that discernment isn't just knowing right from wrong, but right from almost right. How true! Indeed, false teachers won't come in announcing themselves! If we love God and the souls of others, we must caution those who are going down the wrong road, for sure.

May God continue to draw you closer to Himself Catherine, as you abide in His Word, testing everything, and rejoicing in the Truth. Your encouragement is SO timely, too, because I've met some hostility within my own family recently b/c of my strong stand for biblical truth.

In Christ Alone,

Denise

LEVI said...

I shared with a seasoned true Christian in the south of France. He told me that the most virulent response in his life were about an article in relation to :

Spiritual authority -
Submissiveness or rebellion -
Exercise of authority -
Can woman teach -

Blessings and keep on The Narrow road, The Royal Road applying the Royal Law in Jesus Christ-Messiah, The TRUTH - The Way and The Life.

Yves
yeshua.connections@yahoo.fr

LEVI said...

Merci

You are in the correct road

Blessings.

I have posted comments 4 times. I am over

Blessings

LEVI

Denise said...

Thank you Levi for your encouragement and sharing what's going on in the South of France. May the unchanging truth be proclaimed without wavering both in France and here in America, to His glory.

Julie said...

God spoke through a burning bush, through a donkey, through prostitutes, and a murderer of Christians. These women teach, if men choose to sit under their teaching and it's wrong, the man is choosing to sin. It was wrong for the unclean to be out among people, but the unclean woman sought Christ out and touched His garment, and what did He do? He healed her. It was wrong for a Jew to work on the Sabbath, but Jesus healed people. It was wrong for a Jew and a Samaritan to mingle, but Jesus sought out the woman at the well. God is in control and He will use the voice in people's lives that will speak to them. The Law has never saved anyone. If the Law worked, Jesus wouldn't have died. By beating people over the head with doctrine, how many are you influencing for the cause of Christ? None. For the record, I agree women should not hold a position of leadership in the church. They should not exert authority over men. These women are not doing that, but that is what you choose to see. You can say a blog is different because you aren't getting paid, but oh dear, how easy it is to justify our own issues, is it not? While you are at it, you might want to have a talk with the Lord about Rahab and let's not forget Deborah, or Esther. I feel sorry for you. If you truly comprehended the heart of the Lord, you wouldn't be tied up in finding fault. How's that working for you, by the way? How often are you finding fault with yourself?

Denise said...

Julie,

I have given evidence of these women teaching men and thus violating Scripture. In fact Beth Moore has proudly been teaching men since the beginning of her teaching ministry at her church, as I also showed this evidence as well. It seems you didn't bother to read the article and look up the links, because I was quite clear. Julie, its YOU who chooses not to see that these women are repeatedly violating Scripture.

The fruit of their violation of the command of women teaching men and having authority over them, is borne out in the fact that these women are getting into Contemplative Spirituality, Emergent Church Movement, feminism, "revelations", and inter-faith, thus making God's point of why He won't allow a woman to teach men in church or have authority over them when He stated through Paul:

1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

You think that I'm "beating people over the head with doctrine" and somehow think that means I can't influence others for the cause of Christ. Doctrine means teaching. Do you know what the doctrine of Jesus Christ is? Do you know what the doctrine of justification is or sanctification is? Do you know what the biblical doctrine of the church is? How about the Trinity? Would not the biblical doctrine of Jesus Christ distinguish Him from a false Jesus Christ? Yes it would.


Jesus's ministry was dominated by doctrine, as was all the apostles and prophets.

False doctrine leads people away from the truth:


2 Tim. 2: 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their TEACHING will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.



This is why we MUST have biblical doctrine and use it, that is, Scripture, to refute those with unsound doctrine and encourage those who are HIS "so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of DOCTRINE , by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes," Eph 4:14 .

We are called to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ (2Peter 3:18), and that happens by learning the doctrines found in Scripture. Doctrine defines our beliefs and practices. God commands us to not only know doctrine, but to practice it. God demands us to worship HIM in "spirit and TRUTH" and that is what biblical doctrine is: spiritual truth. Its all the teaching ("doctrine") in Scripture.

Isa 45:19 …I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right.


Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; AVOID THEM.

I find it interesting that after listing my faults you then state, "I feel sorry for you. If you truly comprehended the heart of the Lord, you wouldn't be tied up in finding fault. " So basically you are hypocritical by accusing me of the very thing you yourself are doing.

It is for the love of God, His Word, and His people that I warn others (I also encourage too, but you'd have to read my blog to know that). This isn't church, Julie. This isn't a conference. And payment has nothing to do with it. If you think this is violating Scripture, you haven't proven it by Scripture nor by example. The only way you can say that is if you think that Internet is a church and that I've got authority over men. Neither are true of the Internet. This is my personal blog: I'm not running a board with men under me, either. A blog is a marketplace of ideas, where no one can control another.

http://surphside.blogspot.com/2011/05/women-publicly-teaching-unbiblical.html

carol decker said...

Im in complete agreement with this blog comment and no a man reading this blog and learning something is NOT the same as a woman standing before the congregation. The Bible is clear that a woman is not to teach men in the public assembly. We would do well to stop reading our bibles from a particular bent making it subjective to what we want it to mean and realize it's objective truth and all our reasoning and wants dont change the objective truth of it. C Decker

carol decker said...

“Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right.” -Charles Spurgeon.

Seems so many are confused as to what The Word Of God says about allot of things and the real issue lies in the pride of men from what I have seen. Everyone interprets the Bible based on their own particular bents from their own particular place in a thing. Very sad. Great blog comment and I will have to agree with The Word Of God in this as well and say Women are not permitted to preach and or teach in the open assembly..

Denise said...

Allrising1 commented:

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

I was once under the assumption that women could not teach or lead men--until I investigated the matter on my own, scripturally and under the supervision of substantiated ministers, as the Bible says we are to do.

Did you even bother to call ANY of the women (or their ministries) to discuss your position with them before betraying them on your capricious, unsubstantiated blog? I'm not defending them--they can do that on their own. I am simply defending the faith. It's a shame that some, through pride, are so quick to put down good, Spirit-filled women in the ministry without accurately handling the word of God. Based on your understanding then, a woman, like myself, cannot teach the gospel or the Bible to a man I work with, and who is in need of salvation? Well, that contradicts the great commission and other scripture throughout the whole counsel of God.

Throughout the New and Old Testaments, women have been leaders and have played a role in the forming of the church and given the same inheritance as men. (i.e., the daughters of Zelophehad in Joshua 17, Huldah in 2 Kings 22:12—20, Deborah in Judges 4 and 5--who btw, held the place of greatest authority in Israel in her day. She is also one of the few judges of whom the Bible reports NO failures. Anna in Luke 2, Pricilla and Phoebe in Romans 16, Lydia in Acts 16...)

Paul gladly accepts the ministry of women on several occasions!

End quote.

Because of two links I can't approve of, I decided to post her comment without them.

Denise said...

Allrising1:

I think Scripture couldn't be clearer on the issue of women's roles in marriage and in the church: women are not to have authority over nor teach men. This isn't talking about proclaiming the Gospel; Scripture doesn't contradict itself. Sharing the Gospel is what we are all to do as Christians, but that doesn't mean we have any authority or are teaching them Scripture; rather we are proclaiming the good news. Even a child can do this.

Consider this:

Quote:

the Bible begins by establishing both the equality of men and women and also the support role of the wife. Many other Old Testament passages support these two themes of equality and submission for women (i.e., Ex. 21:15, 17, 28-31; Num. 6:2; 5:19, 20, 29; 30:1-16).

Women were active in the religious life of Israel throughout the Old Testament, but generally they were not leaders--with a few exceptions. Women like Deborah (Jud. 4), however, clearly were the exception and not the rule. In fact, Isaiah 3:12 in its context of God's judgment on unbelieving and disobedient Israel indicates that God allowed weak leaders, either masculine women or effeminate men, to rule as a part of His judgment on the sinning nation.

Adam was created first, and Eve was later created as a helper for him rather than their being created simultaneously and independent of each other. Eve was deceived and led her husband into sin rather than submitting to his leadership. If the reason for the woman's submission is related to the creation and the fall, than it is not something which can change from year to year and culture to culture. Rather, it is a universal principle.

End quote.

~ John MacArthur http://web.archive.org/web/20100201025755/http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/womensroles.htm

Kelly said...

What about the women of the Bible?

Phoebe (Romans 16:1-2)
Priscilla (Acts 18:26)
Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3)
Junia (Romans 16:7)

And what about Ruth & Esther?

Just some thoughts.....

Denise said...

Kelly,

None of those women were leaders. There were many women that were used by God in ministry, absolutely. That's not the issue. The issue is that God's design and command to us is that women are not to be leaders over men, having authority over them, nor having a teaching role over them in the churches. I addressed this issue in the comment before your's, as well as in linking to three articles and messages by John MacArthur who goes into greater detail about this.

I think Scripture is clear on this and you should find the articles on women's roles helpful on this topic. Thanks for stopping by.

When He Whispers said...

Denise,

I agree, women are not to teach men. We have to hold up the truth and I thank you for doing just that.
You mentioned John MacArthur and his articles about teaching women. I wouldn't listen to him either as he also goes against scripture by adding works to God's perfect and free gift of salvation.
I understand your article here is about women teaching and not MacArthur, but you did mention him :)
Praying God blesses you today!

Denise said...

Whispers, thank you for coming by. Let me address the MacArthur issue. I believe you don't have a right understanding of what he has taught in regard to salvation, so let me give you a few articles to clarify what he teaches and what they teach at Grace Community Church. Its not a works salvation, let me reassure you:

True Faith and True Grace: http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A317/true-faith-and-true-grace
This will clarify the issue for you.

For more:

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A100

http://www.gty.org/resources/Articles/A129/Clarifying-the-Lordship-Debate-Part-1

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/41-9/the-scandal-of-grace : "The glory of the gospel is not that God gives salvation to the people who earn it, or He gives salvation to the people who achieve it, or the people who are good enough, or righteous enough, or holy enough, but He gives salvation to the ungodly and the unholy and the unrighteous who believe in Christ and repent. This is the scandal of grace and it scandalizes every works/righteousness system in existence. It is the difference between the true gospel and all other religions."

If you do a search on www.gty.org you can look up all the sermons he's taught on regarding grace, faith, and salvation. You can also look it up by Scripture.

Jenelle Drada said...

Are you aware that John Macarthur had Joni Eareckson Tada speak at his church to a mix crowd?

Denise said...

Yes I am Janelle. And while I disagree with it, I believe their rationale was that she was sharing her testimony of sorts, in the vein of Elisabeth Elliot. I still disagree with that. Its very rare to happen at GCC, extraordinarily so (it might be that Tada had her husband next to her, I don't know). You still won't find that a practice at GCC and you won't find a woman behind a pulpit teaching men from Scripture, nor in a classroom setting.

Rose Michels said...

Hi Denise. Just stopping to say THANK YOU for a wonderful blog post. Very thorough and biblically accurate! You've done your research. I'm an avid viewer of John MacArthur's resources online. You're very lucky to sit under such authoritative, expository preaching. Well ... like I said, just a thank you. Much enjoyed and much appreciated. May I say, for the most part, even the ones disagreeing have been cordial. I can only imagine the replies you can't post. :) God bless you!

Denise said...

Hi Rose,

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement!

I have been blessed by John MacArthur's teaching over the years,although I don't go there (my pastor however, did graduate from The Master's Seminary), except on occasion. I'm so appreciative of all the online resources and books through Grace to You!

May the Lord be praised for His grace toward us and for the encouragement of like-minded believers ---I find them such a source of comfort and joy! Blessings to you Rose!

Tamara said...

How do you interpret this passage?

Luke 11:31 (also repeated in Matthew 12:42):

"The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and shall condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and lo, greater than Solomon here!"

Denise said...

Tamara,

That is referring to the Queen of Sheba who sought out King Solomon b/c of his reknown wisdom. Jesus is far superior in every way to Solomon, since Jesus Christ is God the Son, the long-awaited sinless Messiah, full of truth and wisdom and yet that generation refused to come to Him as the Queen of Sheba went to Solomon. Jesus is condemning that group because of the wicked unbelief of their heart. Here is God very God, taken on human flesh, dwelling among them giving absolute truth to the Jews yet the Jews despised Him and did not recognize Him.

Luk 11:29 As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
Luk 11:30 "For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation.
Luk 11:31 "The Queen of the South will rise up with the men of this generation at the judgment and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.
Luk 11:32 "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

I'm not sure why you asked about this passage.

Denise said...

Tamara,

In other words, an unbelieving heathen Gentile was willing to acknowledge the wisdom of the king of Israel, Solomon....something the Jews refused to do with their Messiah. This will be to their condemnation on the Day of Judgment.

Denise said...

Tamara,

In other words, an unbelieving heathen Gentile was willing to acknowledge the wisdom of the king of Israel, Solomon....something the Jews refused to do with their Messiah. This will be to their condemnation on the Day of Judgment.