About the time he opened a church in Dana Point in 1975, Smith Jr. began reading widely, making friends with Christians of different backgrounds. He began to consider that when Jesus spoke of the kingdom of heaven, he was referring to the rewards of a selfless life, here and now -- that the Gospels' core message was real-world compassion, not preparation for the afterlife.
For years, Smith Jr. said, he had preached about hell uncomfortably, half-apologetically, because he couldn't understand why a loving God would consign his children to eternal flames. It felt like blackmail for a pastor to threaten people with hell-scapes from the Middle Ages to induce piety.
Now, he came to believe that the biblical images used to depict hell's torments -- such as the "lake of fire" and the "worm that does not die" -- were intended to evoke a feeling rather than a literal place.
He also grew disillusioned with the Rapture, the notion that believers in Jesus will be whisked to God's side during Armageddon. His father had predicted the end of the world would arrive in the 1980s, based on his reading of the Book of Revelation. He has continued, year after year, to announce its imminence with absolute confidence....
The father on homosexuality: "It is the final affront against God."
The son: "I met homosexuals who were trying to live celibate lives or be heterosexual, and I heard all about their struggles, and I never wanted to exacerbate that. My heart went out to them. Listening convinced me that homosexual orientation is not something people chose."
One by one they fell away, the doctrinal pillars of the house his father built. Yet Smith Jr. remained under the Calvary Chapel roof, not wanting to embarrass dad by leaving.
Smith Jr. weeps before his congregation, making no secret of his ongoing battle with depression that took him to the brink of suicide after his 1993 divorce. At the time, he stood before his congregation explaining that his wife of 18 years, the mother of his five children, was leaving him despite his effort to save the marriage.
A friend got him a psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist got him antidepressants. A local pastor called for his resignation, but his congregation sent hundreds of letters of support.
"My vulnerability allowed them to love me in need," he said.
Still, his condition alienated him further from his father's church, where depression is widely viewed as a spiritual problem bespeaking flawed faith....
He stresses how much he loves his son, regrets that he didn't spend more time with him as he grew up: "Surely he's not a clone, and I respect and admire him for that. There's nothing shoddy about his ministry at all."
Reminded of the memo he issued cracking down on his son's views, the father replies, calmly and amiably, that he and his son are just aiming for different audiences, and he doesn't want to alienate the one he has. He says their relationship is stronger than ever, even deepened by the controversy.
"I don't feel that he's an apostate at all. If he would begin to question that Jesus is the son of God, then I would be concerned...."
In just a few minutes, his conversation can veer energetically from Russian religious painters, to his upcoming visit to African orphanages, to his belief that Christianity and evolution are compatible...."It's sad to me that a man passionate about God's creation should have his education stunted at some level by a narrow vision of creationism," Smith Jr. said. "Because the universe is no less fascinating for being 15 billion years old than being 10,000 years old."
His relationship with his father, he agrees, is tighter than ever. He will even write his dad's biography some day. His challenge, he says, is extricating himself from his dad's fundamentalist evangelical community without traumatizing his parents.
End quote.
Of course, Smith Jr. has revealed himself to be an apostate, but look at the downgrade. It started slowly, reading books, and making friends with people who are outside the Once Delivered Faith. This IS what Jude was talking about.
Consider the talk about emotions, feelings, relationships. It is these that dictate what he believes, and therefore disbelieve God's Word. Compromising truth for relationships. It is a relationship too, that of his son, that Smith Sr. refuses to see his son who is a pastor, as an apostate and call him to repentance. By his own admission, he'd rather see Truth as optional than be severed from his son. What does Scripture say?
Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
1Ti 5:19 Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
2Jo 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
1Jn 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
20 comments:
Who are to judge? You know nothing but what you read. You probably believe all the gossip magazine. Get ALL the facts before you start blogging and judging. Shame on you! .
DT,
And yet you sit there judging me?
You are judging me for judging. Its quite hypocritical. You are doing the very thing you accuse me of doing--and more.
I stand by my article. Chuck Jr and Chuck Sr. have gone the way of apostasy. They do not hold to the doctrines of Scripture but instead are disloyal to HIM as I have demonstrated.
What ever happened to love.... This is just gossiping.... How would you like for people to sit around and speak about your mess because your father is a great man and you struggle.... Pray for him... I will pray for you...
Indeed, "This Journey", whatever happened to loving God first and foremost and HIS gospel and the souls of others? I'm not sitting around gossiping, Journey. This is PUBLIC information; information that Smith was glad to talk about. And as a public persona who has also gone public and claims to be a teacher of the Word, he is to be judged by his claims and fruit, just as Jesus told us to do in Matt. 7, Gal. 1:7-9, and 2John 9-11. Smith Jr. is no victim here. He has wandered away from the Truth and needs to repent of his hostility toward God and Scripture. If your attitude is what you define as "love" toward me, while you give a pastor a free pass for rejecting a huge doctrine like Hell, then you've got a twisted view of love. I wonder why praying for someone like me is used as a put down? So you see prayer as something only those who are wrong need? That you don't need prayer? Journey, you're definitely on a bumpy and questionable trip.
I am a sinner saved by the blood of Christ, who I accepted as Lord and Savior, surrendering my will to Him at a church service at Calvary Chapel in 1971. I was baptized at Little Corona a year later.
I am also a man attracted to men, but celibate. Two questions I'd like your opinion on: Do you consider me a Christian? Do you consider me a homosexual?
arc,
If you are truly a Christian, then you can't be a homosexual, if that's what your are implying (I have no idea if you are male or female). Its either one or the other.
Furthermore Scripture states about homosexuality as: "Lusts of their hearts","impure", "dishonorable passions", "consumed with passion", "unnatural", "contrary to nature". The very lust in the heart is impure, unnatural, and contrary to Scripture and is the result of a hard heart toward God that refuses to worship HIM. It begins in the heart with action that follows (see Romans 1). Those in Christ have a new nature, DO worship God, and have a new identity in Christ. They are no longer homosexuals:
1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals... will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such WERE some of you. BUT you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
I believe God can and does remove such an unnatural passion and lust in the hearts of those who get saved, restoring them to a natural order of things, if you will...man and woman, as God created and purposed.
Just what is such a person actually saved from and saved to, if he or she still is in bondage to something so perverted and twisted against God's creation order?
The way "evangelicals" are trying to get Christians to accept homosexuality is by incrementally moving toward accepting certain presupposed notions such as homosexuality without acting upon it, homosexuality as natural, homosexual "gene". None of these things is true nor biblical. Itis the direct result of not worshiping God as Romans 1 states, and to be saved necessarily means one is NO LONGER a homosexual nor has such perverted, unnatural lusts of the heart. Again I appeal to the several passages of Romans 1.
Sin begins in the heart. If you lust after the same sex, you need to not only confess that to God as sin, you must repent of it: turn away from it. Those in Christ can because we are new creations in Christ, who worship Him alone, seeking the things above, not on earth.
I am curious as to why you are neither posting nor responding to my latest comment?
arc, because I believe I did responded, but you didn't want the answer I gave. Remember, as I showed by Scripture, having unnatural desires for those of the same gender is perverted and unnatural and according to Romans 1, is not in accordance with those who worship God and are new creations in Him.
I have a question? What about people who are born with both sex genitalia?
If at birth their parents decide to have one removed, and that child grows up attracted to the same sex then what. God is the creator of all things good in heaven and on earth. I just want Denise to explain this one to me. No disrespect intended, but would you...and with scripture please.
Cheri,
All people are born either as male or female. This can be verified by not only observation, but by DNA. A deformity with body parts does not determining factor whether the person is male or female, the genetic code does. Btw, your hypothetical is just that; certainly its not normative by any means.
Are you not familiar with all the passages where God condemns homosexuality, Cheri? He says this throughout all of Scripture. Are you not familiar with the created order in Gen. 1-2 and how God created male and female and additionally defined marriage between a man and a woman? These are basic fundamentals of biblical Christianity.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
God's condemnation of homosexuality is abundantly clear--He opposes it in every age.
- In the patriarchs (Genesis 19:1-28)
- In the Law of Moses (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13)
- In the Prophets (Ezekiel 16:46-50)
- In the New Testament (Romans 1:18-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Jude 7-8)
Here is the pre-incarnate Christ speaking:
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.
He then destroys forever Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities for such great sin.
Jesus, Who personally saw the exceedingly great and grave sin of Sodom and then destroyed them for it, confirms their rightful punishment:
Mat 11:24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."
Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Cont'd below...
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Notice how God describes homosexuality: Lusts of their hearts,impure, dishonorable passions, consumed with passion, unnatural, contrary to nature. It begins in the heart and mind--the very attraction you speak of is the very thing God condemns and says is the direct result of not acknowledging God as Creator nor worshiping Him.
Moreover, God says that homosexuality is a grievous sin (see verses above), but one that a person can be saved from and made new:
1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such WERE some of you. BUT you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
"Why does God condemn homosexuality? Because it overturns God's fundamental design for human relationships--a design that pictures the complementary relationship between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:18-25; Matthew 19:4-6; Ephesians 5:22-33)." ~John MacArthur
Besides the plethora of passages from Scripture I gave, you yourself did not bring any Scriptures into the discussion, which I find interesting. You need to prove your position of God not only creating people sodomites, but also approves of that sinful lifestyle. As I have proven from Scripture, God condemns sodomy in all times for all cultures because it violates the creative order and the holiness of marriage, along with destroying the family as HE has ordered it in the beginning. This is not a topic for debate, Cheri. You asked for Scripture (without giving any yourself) and I have supplied ample verses to show the Biblical perspective. You should be satisfied with the many passages.
After you have carefully read my two comments which contain a lot of Scripture, I also suggest reading this article: http://surphside.blogspot.com/2013/03/homosexuality-is-not-new-black.html
Only God can judge correctly because he knows each of our histories. And there are many reasons, not just lust that causes homosexuality. Molestation, rape, incest, etc. I would rather view this topic first and foremost with compassion and from the place that I'm far from perfect myself. The bottom line, judge not and you won't be judged. and mix it with the fact that love covers a multitude of sins starting with our own.
Hi Cathy,
Scripture is given to us to use in judging what is and is not of Christ; what is and is not holy behavior, fruit of regeneration, a walk that is in a manner worthy of Christ. We are in fact to judge homosexuality as God has judged it: an unnatural perversion worthy of eternal punishment.
1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals...
1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
Cathy, Scripture says sodomy is of the HEART first and foremost:
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the LUSTS OF THEIR HEARTS to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to DISHONORABLE PASSIONS
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were CONSUMED WITH PASSION for one another, men committing SHAMELESS ACTS with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
This is in line with what Jesus taught:
Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with LUST for her has ALREADY COMMITTED ADULTERY with her IN HIS HEART.
Perfection on our part is never an issue, so that's a not even part of how we see or deal with sin. Scripture is perfect, however, as is the Holy Spirit, and both have already told us about how corrupt homosexuality is. Its so corrupt that NO HOMOSEXUAL will go to Heaven. The only way is through salvation by Christ:
1Co 6:11 And such WERE some of you. BUT you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Romans 1 clearly states the reason why people decide to become sodomites: refusal to acknowledge God.
Please don't be persuaded by the world's justification of homosexuality b/c that is NOT the place for the Christian to examine and judge sodomy. It is SOLELY by the Scriptures alone.
Nor are we to withhold judgment based on our personal experiences. That's also quite self-centered and skewed as it is not objective truth: Scripture is.
Love does not cover the sin of sodomy Cathy; you are misinterpreting and misapplying the verse you allude to. We are called to warn people of their sin before God else they enter eternity in Hell. If we love them, we can do no other.
God did not nor did His church in Jerusalem, cover the sin of Ananias and his wife Saphhira, when they lied about the price they sold their property for. God struck them both dead.
For a lie.
Here's how Paul handled sexual immorality:
1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
How much more grave is the sin of sodomy, that at its heart, rejects the God of Scripture even as Creator?
Here's what the Scriptures mean regarding love covering a multitude of sins in 1Peter 4:8 (and btw, the context in that verse talks about holy living and being of sound judgment):
“love will cover a multitude of sins.” Quoted from Prov. 10:12. It is the nature of true spiritual love, whether from God to man or Christian to Christian, to cover sins (cf. Rom. 5:8). This teaching does not preclude the discipline of a sinning, unrepentant church member (cf. Matt. 18:15–18; 1 Cor. 5). It means specifically that a Christian should overlook sins against him if possible, and always be ready to forgive insults and unkindnesses. ~JM
Cathy would you excuse or tolerate pedophilia the same you you excuse and tolerate sodomy?
Why is homosexuality such a divisive topic in the church today, when it is so cut and dry in scripture? Could it be a sign of how the homosexual agenda has gained inroads not only in society but tragically in the church as well, the last bastion of truth is being pillared with attack after attack to accept this perversion, to speak against it and expose it is now considered a "hate crime", the sodomites are turning society into Sodom and Gomorrah, brainwashing and indoctrinating our children through the media and the godless school system, and by saying that if you speak against it you are hating them is their biggest lie and greatest tool to bring God's wrath and judgement upon us, God help us to stand against the coming tide of apostasy, that is already here.
There are plenty of great scriptures above that give clarity to the Issue of homosexuality. I was involved in my 20's (now pushing 70) w/one of the Calvery's, as a young person. I was so on fire for the Lord & still deeply LOVE my JESUS. Over time I began to see a lot of sexual sin and control (expecially over women) in the church. I was married to a non Christian at the time & ultimately lost the marriage, as my 1st husband was always saying Calvery was a "cult" and had his own anger issues w/God. All that said...today, I am married to a beautiful "true" Christian who has also seen all the "church crazies" that can go on w/the "weaknesses of sinful man". I wrote a book on the 'alcoholic, power control/games' that can go on in man made church orgs. which was not only healing for me but others. Only God is our heavenly Father who has authority over us-and man is a weak example when trying to dominate or sheperd/manipulate people's lives. During that time of my youth, I saw a lot of the homosexual sin & sexual impurity. Having lived thru all that and the pain of it all, I can clearly give testimony, that all sexual sin is of course an abomination to God. YET, homosexuality, is a unique perversity that destroys everything around it & is descent into a black hole of evil. Sadly, not only are our churches are going the way of perversion, validating/and accepting it- but we are moving culturally to a place of it being a "hate crime" to speak of it. Counseling kids who've been sexually abused, is also becoming a crime, as our culture accepts & tries to normalize homosexual behavior. SO---the church had better wake up fast & deal w/these childhood crimes & not be afraid to speak the truth about homosexuality (and all sexual sin) as SIN. I've counseled (and dealt w/in my own family) a lot of kids and adults who suffered abuse, often spiritual, who went into the gay world, being controlled and manipulated (mentally, physically & spiritually). Of course, there is a huge SPIRITUAL component about the last days and sexual sin running rampant. Bottom line - it's time to put on the ADULT pants of Christianity & be mature men/women of guts and courage. It take's a CLEAR stand amid this culture to bring change. We also need to call out the Addictive Forms of Spiritual abuse & control in churches that hide so many of these sins. PURITY & Holiness ONLY come from staying close to the Cross, knowing it is all JESUS and his shed blood that cleanses us from all unrighteousness. We cannot drum up holiness as it is HIS finished work in our hearts that makes real change thru repentence & HIS daily finished work of GRACE in our lives. "Whom the SON sets free is free indeed-therefore now, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ JESUS". We so need to pray for this country and spiritual forces in & out of our churches, then rest in HIS finished work on the CROSS. Praise the LORD!
Wow, finally I found that there really are 7000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal... Thank you for being one of them!
I met a gal yesterday (Pastor's wife) who is in a "legalistic church" while @ a restaurant...so I went on their local website to see what they believed and was saddened. Rather than giving the denomination, I'd just like to share a few things, as I did in the above post. So many Christians are in some form of spiritual bondage to either a "controlling sin" of some form, or a religious, "christianize" kind of control, or are against God w/a bitterness-unforgivelness form of "offense" that they carry around, keeping them from loving JESUS because of unforgivness. Here's the bottom line. There is so much JOY and FREEDOM when walking in the Love of JESUS. ORGANIZATIONS... Man's way to God thru churches, will ALWAYS FAIL us, be fallible, weak and full of "issues" b'cuz there will be MAN inside of these organizations. This is the case in non-religious orgs or "ways to health", whatever label given...as this is a part of life.
As I get closer to my last days on this earth, and having been away from God in my 20's, then returned as a "worship leader' in Music ministry as well as a Chaplain-teacher in and out of churches I've come to ONE Conclusion again: ALL have sinned & fallen short of the GLORY of GOD, or as my Mother used to say -"Everybody goes to the 'John". Until we come to this as Christians, we'll just keep walking around w/diapers on, thumb sucker baby christians on mother's milk, expecting to find an answer outside of our own personal, loving relationship w/our Lord JESUS. HE FILLS US UP w/SO MUCH LOVE! Be it a Pastor, a friend, a group, a Bible study, some "identity politics group", racial, gender flag waving, any organization we get all helped up on, or a denomination, or some "new age movement", the POPE, or the ACLU, political party in or out of religion. It could be anything-Nothing will bring us Peace outside of JESUS. One day...we will all stand alone B4 our GOD. We can live our lives lying to ourselves being a "cling on" to some issue or movement-but in the end it's all just a big phoney baloney deal, where we become a victim, controlled by someONE or some THING. No ONE will bring Peace to our hearts except the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, and that Love of JESUS Christ that cleanses us from ALL of our unrighteousness (sin)---of which we have a whole bunch of inside of our selfish souls. So may I encourage anyone on this blog today: Let go of all of those "hanger ons" in & outside of the church, religion or movements that seek to steal our attention, let us down... and walk into PEACE w/JESUS. HE ALONE WILL FILL US UP W/ EVERYTHING & ANYTHING
WE NEED. Put on Worship and Praise thru out your day, enjoy the friendship of other like minded people who Love the Lord, enjoy every day that God has given to you on the planet & love others w/HIS love. Then....will to FORGIVE-by giving it to Him to forgive thru us. LOOK UP... for your Redemption draws nigh! This is what will bring you & I, Peace & Happiness, nothing else. "BLESS THE LORD OH MY SOUL, & ALL THAT IS WITHIN ME, BLESS HIS HOLY NAME---HALLELUJAH!!!
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