I read this blog entry today and was struck at how right on Robert Morey is. MAN, I'm loving this guy's boldness! He sees what I see and he's a straight shooter like me. BRING IT ON brother!!!
What I loved from "A Few Thoughts on Apostasy" by Robert Morey
My only hurdle is to choose which parts to post...they're all really GOOD. I suggest you just go read the whole thing. Its short, but loaded with truth and boldness. And we can all use that more as the days grow dark. I've added just a couple of comments in brackets and italics. ~Denise
Quote:
The question of whether we should question the salvation experience of those who teach false doctrine is an important question that is increasingly an issue today. The moment you question the salvation of anyone, you are attacked on every hand as being mean. Yet, those who condemn us for doing so have never dealt with the following questions.
1. Did Jesus question the salvation of the religious leaders and teachers of his day?
2. Did he call them names and heap ridicule on them?
3. Was He right or wrong to do so?
4. Was He mean and unloving?
5. Should we follow his example and walk as he walked?
6. Did Jesus tell us to judge some people to be false prophets, dogs, and pigs?
7. Did Paul follow the example of Jesus and cast doubt on the salvation of people in the church who claimed to be “brothers?”
8. Did he call them names and heap ridicule on them?
9. Did Paul call some professing Christians “false brethren?”
10. Did he tell us to follow him as he followed Christ?
11. Did John, the Apostle of Love, tell us to question the profession of salvation made people? “He that says, “I know him” but ….”
12. Did Peter cast doubt on the conversion of professing Christians in his day?
13. What did he say to Simon in Acts 8?
These questions help us to frame the issue of whether we should, at this time, in the light of their recent teachings, question the salvation of J. P. Moreland, William Craig, and their disciples. Given what they are now teaching, we must put a huge question mark over their head. Frank Beckwith is a good example. He was not thrilled when I cast doubt on his salvation. But now that I have been 100% vindicated by his apostasy to popery, my doubts and warnings were right on target.
When I was Chairman of the membership committee of the ETS, I often doubted the salvation of such men as Gundry, Pinnock, etc. who denied the inerrancy of Scripture. They were offended when I told them that I did NOT accept them as fellow Christians. I have always been open and honest about such things. I told Frankie Schaeffer on a radio program several years ago that he was apostate and on his way to hell. He got all offended that I refused to accept him as a Christian. But now that he openly rejects the gospel and has joined the Orthodox cult, I have been vindicated 100%.
The main problem is that many religious leaders today say one thing and teach another. If you ask Gregory Boyd or the other “Open View of God” heretics if they believe in the “omniscience” of God, they will say, “Yes.” Dumb Christians are satisfied at this point and go their merry way deceived and hoodwinked. But if you force them to define the term “omniscience,” they end up denying that God knows all things! They claim that God does not and cannot know the future.
Just because someone says, “I believe in sola scriptura,” does not mean he really believes in it. If he elsewhere says that the Bible is not the final authority in faith and practice, he has denied in substance what he supposedly affirmed as a slogan. Heretics have always done this. What they affirm with the right hand is what they deny with the left hand. It does not matter what doctrine is at stake.
a. In the early 1980s, those who denied the inerrancy of Scripture did not begin by openly denying it. They redefined it until the term “inerrancy” meant errors! [Sounds like Reclaiming The Mind's Michael Patton to me]
b. Those who deny the ontological deity of Christ try to deceive people at first by pretending they do believe in the deity of Christ. It is only upon careful questioning that the truth comes out. [I've been called an Inquistionist for questioning someone who's sounding very strange in doctrine and gives me red flags all over the place.]They only accept a functional meaning of the deity of Christ in that he functioned as a revelation of God, just as the heavens do. But they deny that Jesus was ontologically GOD as well as man.
c. Those who deny the bodily resurrection of Christ often pretend to believe in it by tricky words and double talk. Believe me; I have heard some slick theologians in my day! [No kidding! I have too...by Matt Slick. His twist is that if a person just doesn't know about the resurrection, then they are still saved, but if the person rejects the resurrection then they are not saved. This is word play and he's been caught red-handed by many people online. He still holds to this view, after all he didn't know Jesus was "physically resurrected for two years after he was saved" Scroll down to Surphing # 3 paragraph C for one instance.]
Apostasy in Scripture is of two kinds: doctrinal and moral.
A heretic can be a good person who is very moral. Yet, he can also be an anti-Christ. The monk Pelagius was according to all a good man, morally speaking. Thus when I point out some teacher as a heretic, evanjellyfish usually respond, “But he is sooo nice! He is a good man. How dare you attack him!”
They assume that heretics are always mean and vile. A nice heretic who says that right phrases and theological clichés cannot be a heretic in their mind.The problem with heretics who are “nice” is that we tend to let them get away with the most outrageous teaching because they seem to be so nice...
I hope these words are not twisted to mean I think I can judge their hearts. That is something only God can do.
But I am bound by the Word of God to judge their theology.
I can do no other.
Robert Morey
End Quote.
AMEN!
Upon reading about the defection of Evangelical Theological Society's president, Dr. Frank Beckwith to Rome, his resume screamed WARNING! Did anyone see this besides Morey?
Reclaiming The Mind's "Converse With A Scholar" ministry (founder is Michael Patton), offered Beckwith on their program online on February 28, 2008. I wonder if this is why Patton was all over the map on the RCC, basically defending it in his unsure, "irenic" yet unbiblical way, in his interview with James White on The Dividing Line:
James White: An RCer rejecting sola fide, as Rome has not only denied but taught works, does that person have eternal life?
Patton: I would say yes they do, but they have a much harder, like the Corinthians. They were polytheist Christians (hear it at time marker 1:15:40). They need the full gospel. They can, though. I'm not saying anybody does.
Unquote.
It has long been my view that those who turn the Narrow Road into the Broad Road do so because they have a loved one or a friend who's lost and they rather have him or her on the way to heaven, so they make the road broader than what Scripture says it is. Indeed, this may be the case here.
I've also realized that those who are huge readers of men's books and are at the higher levels of academia are some of the most liberal-infested minds around, including the Reformed schools. It is because they are exposed to error so much, just to be "fair and balance" that they end up swallowing the lies. Look at the authors Frank Beckwith has cozied up with: W.L. Craig = Open Theist; JP Moreland says some Evangelicals are "over committed to Scripture"; Koukl says Scripture isn't sufficient, we need other things like the wisdom of Pagans and psychology.
Let's not forget it was the Evangelical Theological Society that aided and abetted Open Theists Greg Boyd, Clark Pinnock, and John Sanders. So WISE were the scholars of the ETS that they never could get enough votes to throw them out of their affluent little group. I have NO patience for such garbage as ETS. It needs to be destroyed, never to be heard of again. Truly.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus.
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 2Co 10:6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
Thursday, June 05, 2008
Thursday, May 22, 2008
Tragic Grief and The God Who Comforts
I learned today that Steven Curtis Chapman lost his five year old daughter to a car accident involving his son who was apparently driving. As a parent, I know that is one of the most horrific nightmares one can imagine. My heart is grieved for their loss and I am sure many believers are praying for that family. I pray especially for the son, who must feel great guilt. He is the one who needs God's grace and mercy right now and for the rest of his life. I have no idea if he is saved, but either way he will need the Lord desperately.
Many people are familiar with Is. 40:30-31, but do you know its context? I believe it gives greater meaning to the very last verses. May anyone who reads these passages from Scripture or is facing a trial in their lives, find comfort from the God of ALL comfort and may HE be glorified in your pain and heartach, for HE is our Rock and Shield, our very Help in times of trouble; the God Who Sees; The Healer of broken hearts.
Isa 40:1 Comfort, comfort my people, says your God.
Isa 40:2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
Isa 40:3 A voice cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.
Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
Isa 40:6 A voice says, "Cry!" And I said, "What shall I cry?" All flesh is grass, and all its beauty is like the flower of the field.
Isa 40:7 The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the LORD blows on it; surely the people are grass.
Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.
Isa 40:9 Get you up to a high mountain, O Zion, herald of good news; lift up your voice with strength, O Jerusalem, herald of good news; lift it up, fear not; say to the cities of Judah, "Behold your God!"
Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.
Isa 40:11 He will tend his flock like a shepherd; he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom, and gently lead those that are with young.
Isa 40:12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and marked off the heavens with a span, enclosed the dust of the earth in a measure and weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?
Isa 40:13 Who has measured the Spirit of the LORD, or what man shows him his counsel?
Isa 40:14 Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?
Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket, and are accounted as the dust on the scales; behold, he takes up the coastlands like fine dust.
Isa 40:16 Lebanon would not suffice for fuel, nor are its beasts enough for a burnt offering.
Isa 40:17 All the nations are as nothing before him, they are accounted by him as less than nothing and emptiness.
Isa 40:18 To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with him?
Isa 40:19 An idol! A craftsman casts it, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold and casts for it silver chains.
Isa 40:20 He who is too impoverished for an offering chooses wood that will not rot; he seeks out a skillful craftsman to set up an idol that will not move.
Isa 40:21 Do you not know? Do you not hear? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
Isa 40:23 who brings princes to nothing, and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness.
Isa 40:24 Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown, scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth, when he blows on them, and they wither, and the tempest carries them off like stubble.
Isa 40:25 To whom then will you compare me, that I should be like him? says the Holy One.
Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
Isa 40:27 Why do you say, O Jacob, and speak, O Israel, "My way is hidden from the LORD, and my right is disregarded by my God"?
Isa 40:28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.
Isa 40:29 He gives power to the faint, and to him who has no might he increases strength.
Isa 40:30 Even youths shall faint and be weary, and young men shall fall exhausted;
Isa 40:31 but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint.
**************
2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2Co 1:4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
2Co 1:5 For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.
2Co 1:6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer.
2Co 1:7 Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort.
2Co 1:8 For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself.
2Co 1:9 Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead.
2Co 1:10 He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will deliver us again.
********
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
*****
Psa 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. Psa 103:9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever.
Psa 103:10 He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities.
Psa 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
Psa 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
Psa 103:13 As a father shows compassion to his children, so the LORD shows compassion to those who fear him.
Psa 103:14 For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.
*****
Many people are familiar with Is. 40:30-31, but do you know its context? I believe it gives greater meaning to the very last verses. May anyone who reads these passages from Scripture or is facing a trial in their lives, find comfort from the God of ALL comfort and may HE be glorified in your pain and heartach, for HE is our Rock and Shield, our very Help in times of trouble; the God Who Sees; The Healer of broken hearts.
Isa 40:1 Comfort, comfort my people, says your God.
Isa 40:2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
Isa 40:3 A voice cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.
Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
Isa 40:6 A voice says, "Cry!" And I said, "What shall I cry?" All flesh is grass, and all its beauty is like the flower of the field.
Isa 40:7 The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the LORD blows on it; surely the people are grass.
Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.
Isa 40:9 Get you up to a high mountain, O Zion, herald of good news; lift up your voice with strength, O Jerusalem, herald of good news; lift it up, fear not; say to the cities of Judah, "Behold your God!"
Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.
Isa 40:11 He will tend his flock like a shepherd; he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom, and gently lead those that are with young.
Isa 40:12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and marked off the heavens with a span, enclosed the dust of the earth in a measure and weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?
Isa 40:13 Who has measured the Spirit of the LORD, or what man shows him his counsel?
Isa 40:14 Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?
Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket, and are accounted as the dust on the scales; behold, he takes up the coastlands like fine dust.
Isa 40:16 Lebanon would not suffice for fuel, nor are its beasts enough for a burnt offering.
Isa 40:17 All the nations are as nothing before him, they are accounted by him as less than nothing and emptiness.
Isa 40:18 To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with him?
Isa 40:19 An idol! A craftsman casts it, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold and casts for it silver chains.
Isa 40:20 He who is too impoverished for an offering chooses wood that will not rot; he seeks out a skillful craftsman to set up an idol that will not move.
Isa 40:21 Do you not know? Do you not hear? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
Isa 40:23 who brings princes to nothing, and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness.
Isa 40:24 Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown, scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth, when he blows on them, and they wither, and the tempest carries them off like stubble.
Isa 40:25 To whom then will you compare me, that I should be like him? says the Holy One.
Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
Isa 40:27 Why do you say, O Jacob, and speak, O Israel, "My way is hidden from the LORD, and my right is disregarded by my God"?
Isa 40:28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.
Isa 40:29 He gives power to the faint, and to him who has no might he increases strength.
Isa 40:30 Even youths shall faint and be weary, and young men shall fall exhausted;
Isa 40:31 but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint.
**************
2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2Co 1:4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
2Co 1:5 For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.
2Co 1:6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer.
2Co 1:7 Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort.
2Co 1:8 For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself.
2Co 1:9 Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead.
2Co 1:10 He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will deliver us again.
********
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
*****
Psa 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. Psa 103:9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever.
Psa 103:10 He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities.
Psa 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
Psa 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
Psa 103:13 As a father shows compassion to his children, so the LORD shows compassion to those who fear him.
Psa 103:14 For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.
*****
Tuesday, April 29, 2008
Selling Photos of Scripture To Raise Money
Dan Wallace of Parchment and Pen/Reclaiming The Mind exploits photos of some Scripture manuscripts as a fund rasier:
OK, I admit it: this is shameless of me. It’s tactless, mercenary, and almost despicable. Nevertheless, I’m going forth with it because I believe that, in this case, the ends justify the means. Not that I’ve changed my ethical convictions, but rather than the ends are so vital that a “certain moral flexibility” (as Martin Blank said in his self-description in Grosse Point Blank) is tolerable. And if not tolerable, at least I can always ask for forgiveness (I’ll take that route over asking for permission any day! (;-)).
Here’s my spiel: This past Saturday evening was the annual fundraiser dinner for the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts. As many of you know, we are trying to raise $500,000 for 15 months’ worth of photographic expeditions, starting next month. After the fundraiser, we now have over $150,000 toward that lofty goal. We are extremely grateful to all who have contributed to the work of digitally preserving ancient copies of the Word of God. We did a new thing at the dinner, and it’s something that I’d like to pass on to you who live in the USA. We had some blow-ups of manuscript photographs for sale. The size was 18” x 24”. Each was laminated and was glued to a stiff backboard. The resolution was outstanding. Each picture is numbered on the back; we will only make 500 copies. Then no more. Each comes with a certificate giving the details of what’s in the image, including the age of the manuscript, the text, etc. (A much briefer description is found below.)
The images are for sale at $150 apiece. Half of that money constitutes a tax-deductible donation to CSNTM; half is the market price of the image. Shipping is extra: $10 for the continental US. Many of you live in the Dallas area and could pick up the picture yourself, thus saving on shipping costs. Some of you may wish to add more to the check as a donation to CSNTM. We’ll note the difference and send you a statement to that effect.
Wallace is right, this is shameless, dispicable, and tactless. He should be ashamed, selling photos of Scripture's manuscripts. Whatever his excuse is, it doesn't pass Scripture's test:
2Co 2:17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.
2Co 4:2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God.
1Th 2:9 For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called "knowledge," 21 for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you.
OK, I admit it: this is shameless of me. It’s tactless, mercenary, and almost despicable. Nevertheless, I’m going forth with it because I believe that, in this case, the ends justify the means. Not that I’ve changed my ethical convictions, but rather than the ends are so vital that a “certain moral flexibility” (as Martin Blank said in his self-description in Grosse Point Blank) is tolerable. And if not tolerable, at least I can always ask for forgiveness (I’ll take that route over asking for permission any day! (;-)).
Here’s my spiel: This past Saturday evening was the annual fundraiser dinner for the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts. As many of you know, we are trying to raise $500,000 for 15 months’ worth of photographic expeditions, starting next month. After the fundraiser, we now have over $150,000 toward that lofty goal. We are extremely grateful to all who have contributed to the work of digitally preserving ancient copies of the Word of God. We did a new thing at the dinner, and it’s something that I’d like to pass on to you who live in the USA. We had some blow-ups of manuscript photographs for sale. The size was 18” x 24”. Each was laminated and was glued to a stiff backboard. The resolution was outstanding. Each picture is numbered on the back; we will only make 500 copies. Then no more. Each comes with a certificate giving the details of what’s in the image, including the age of the manuscript, the text, etc. (A much briefer description is found below.)
The images are for sale at $150 apiece. Half of that money constitutes a tax-deductible donation to CSNTM; half is the market price of the image. Shipping is extra: $10 for the continental US. Many of you live in the Dallas area and could pick up the picture yourself, thus saving on shipping costs. Some of you may wish to add more to the check as a donation to CSNTM. We’ll note the difference and send you a statement to that effect.
Wallace is right, this is shameless, dispicable, and tactless. He should be ashamed, selling photos of Scripture's manuscripts. Whatever his excuse is, it doesn't pass Scripture's test:
2Co 2:17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.
2Co 4:2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God.
1Th 2:9 For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called "knowledge," 21 for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you.
Tuesday, April 08, 2008
We Can't Be Overcommitted to Scripture: We Usually Hold the Word Too Low
Psa 138:2 ... for You have exalted above all things Your name and Your word.
I came across an excellent article by Stephen Macasil that expresses my own views very clearly. In this article Stephen deals with J.P. Moreland's error. Moreland has recently been offered by Reclaiming The Mind's Converse With A Scholar program (this is a ministry arm of Dallas Theological Seminary & Stonebriar Community Church). Here is part of Stephen Macasil's article:
Too many times we have been passé rather than angry! What if Jesus, when he saw those money changers in the temple, acted passively instead of what John tells us he did? What if he nudged one of the other observers with his elbow and said “wow, check out those dudes, no respect for the temple man,” and went about his day shaking his head in disappointment. He didn’t! He saw it, grabbed some cords and braided a whip. Then he stormed in there with whip swinging, turning over heavy granite tables and kicking people out. His actions provoked the question: “What sign do you show for doing these things?” He answered: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” You all know the story (John 2:14-22).
When a notable philosophy professor at a Christian University speaks to a crowd of conservative Christian leaders and says that Evangelicals are “over-committed to Scripture,” it should make you angry. It should not be simply waved off for what it is: irrational and absurd. It should make us angry to the point that we do something about it. That’s what we will be doing here for at least the next year or ??? If nobody challenges an ideology, it is bound to grow into something bigger. What Moreland has done is create a straw-man (bibliolatry), drawn absurdities from the straw-man, and swooped in with a solution to the very problem he has created with his own hands. What must be challenged is his negative portrayal of the role of Scripture for those who hold a very high view of Scripture. This can be done by demonstrating that the Bible opposes what he teaches and that it can be reasonably believed as the motive for why he has created the fictive bibliolaters in his imagination. Such unbiblical ideas like freewill, natural theology, natural law, man’s Reason, contemplative meditation, pagan philosophy etc., are ideas that are foundational to Moreland’s worldview. Reduce the role of Scripture in theology and practice and these ideas will fly like the eagle! Maintain that the Bible is the final authority and these ideas die!
In his response to his paper’s critics, he mentioned that his intention was to deliver the paper to academics, not laypersons. But as Frank Pastore said, Moreland is a master wordsmith that chooses his words very carefully and knew exactly how he was going to say what he wanted to say. Never did he ever give any examples of who the infamous bibliolaters are. I have waited, searched, waited some more, and he never gave the example of any church, theologian, denomination, movement, etc., that claims that nothing can exist outside of the Bible. Are there even real people out there that believe this? Are there any Christians that really believe cars don’t exist because they’re not in the Bible (except for the accord)?
Thank you Stephen! I'm so tired of professing Christians speaking the lie of Satan, who made the first attack on God's Word with such a low view was Satan himself:Gen 3:1 "Did God actually say...?"
I'm equally tired of professing Christians not getting angry about the attack on God, His authority, and His Word. If that doesn't get us involved in the War on Truth, WHAT WILL? Jude speaks to this very issue--we are to EARNESTLY CONTEND for the faith! Sin, error, deception in HIS name SHOULD anger us. It SHOULD anger us to see His sheep led astray and given a diet of garbage instead of healthy food. Read Jeremiah7, the 11th verse is what Jesus was quoting when clearing out the moneychangers:
Jer 7:8 "Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail. Jer 7:9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, Jer 7:10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, 'We are delivered!'--only to go on doing all these abominations? Jer 7:11 Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the LORD.
The deception done in HIS name and in HIS temple was an abomination to God. He was angry. David also conveyed this idea:
Psa 139:19 Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God! O men of blood, depart from me! 20 They speak against you with malicious intent; your enemies take your name in vain! 21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? 22 I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! 24 And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!
Like Moreland and others, when you have a low view of Scripture, you will also have a low view of God and a very high view of man.
To quote Michael Patton (he's a member of the Evangelical Theological Society as is Moreland, and also director of Reclaiming the Mind (minstry of Chuch Swindoll's church and Dallas Theological Seminary):
“The presupposition is this: All writers of Scripture, by virtue ofdivine inspiration and inerrancy, must have recorded everything in a technically precise way. I take issue with this presupposition. I do not believe that inspiration and inerrancy require technical precision."“The Gospel writers were simply telling the story of Christ asenthusiastic reporters of good news who were emotionally committed to the truths upon which they were reporting. This happens every day in ourown news reporting system and we don’t hold their feet to the fire oftechnical precision.”“Did the writers record the very words of Christ or the spirit oftruth that his words represent? I would say any inductive approach to arriving at a hermeneutical method demands the latter.”
More low views of God's Word by Michael Patton defending his friend and Dallas Theological Cemetary (he's written a book for New Testament Greek classes in cemetaries), Dan Wallace :
We believe that the Bible is a product that involves 100% man’s input and 100% God’s, don’t we? If we don’t, then we might as well take man out of the picture all together and admit we hold to mechanical dictation (that God simply used the human authors’ hands in writing the Scripture, not their head—sometimes called biblical docetism). If mechanical dictation is true, then we should not care who the authors were writing to and we certainly should not care why they are writing since their motives do not influence the interpretation. I take it that this is all Dan is doing when he makes such statements. He is trying to help people understand that in order to discover the divine purpose of Scripture, we must first take into account the human purpose. I do understand that people have taken this type of redaction criticism too far. Some have gone to the point of denying the truthfulness of the event based upon the expediency of the moment. But this is not in any way what Dan is doing. He is just giving the authors liberty to write an accurate account of the events, while not having to be technically precise with the wording or structure. Scholars refer to this distinction as the difference between ipsissima verba (the very words) and ipsissima vox (the very voice). Did the writers record the very words of Christ or the spirit of truth that his words represent? I would say any inductive approach to arriving at a hermeneutical method demands the latter.
The Canon of Scripture isn't closed, Patton says.
Spurgeon deals with those who have such a low view of Scripture:
"Find Jesus where you may, He is the antagonist of those who would lessen the authority of Holy Scripture. “It is written” is His weapon against Satan, His argument against wicked men. The learned of this hour scoff at the Book and accuse of Bibliolatry those of us who reverence the Divine Word; but in this they derive no assistance from the teaching or example of Jesus."—Spurgeon
"Not a word derogatory of Scripture ever fell from the lips of Jesus Christ; but evermore He manifested the most reverent regard for every jot and tittle of the inspired Volume. Since our Savior, not only before His death, but after it, took care to commend the Scriptures to us, let us avoid with all our hearts all teaching in which Holy Scripture is put into the background."--Spurgeon
Greg Koukl of Stand To Reason ministry (also a guest of Reclaiming the Mind's Converse With a Scholar) questions "Is the Bible Sufficient?" which Martin Bobgan of Psycho-heresy Awareness Ministry critiques and says:
One of Koukl’s arguments supporting his insufficiency-of-Scripture position is his view of what he calls "Wisdom from the Heathen." Koukl’s position implies that if the Bible contains wisdom taken from heathens, then Christians can use wisdom from psychology heathens or others. Koukl says:
The Wisdom Literature of the Amenomope is a body of work from the Middle East that pre-dates Proverbs. It’s of interest because it contains a section of material almost identical to Proverbs 22:17-24:22. It’s highly probable that the authors of the latter part of Proverbs borrowed this material from the Amenomope and inserted it into the inspired text.
Scripture says:
Psa 119:89 Forever, O LORD, Your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Psa 138:2 I bow down toward Your holy temple and give thanks to Your name for Your steadfast love and your faithfulness, for You have exalted above all things Your name and Your word.
Is. 8: 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
Mat 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Psa 119:104 Through your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.
Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
I came across an excellent article by Stephen Macasil that expresses my own views very clearly. In this article Stephen deals with J.P. Moreland's error. Moreland has recently been offered by Reclaiming The Mind's Converse With A Scholar program (this is a ministry arm of Dallas Theological Seminary & Stonebriar Community Church). Here is part of Stephen Macasil's article:
Too many times we have been passé rather than angry! What if Jesus, when he saw those money changers in the temple, acted passively instead of what John tells us he did? What if he nudged one of the other observers with his elbow and said “wow, check out those dudes, no respect for the temple man,” and went about his day shaking his head in disappointment. He didn’t! He saw it, grabbed some cords and braided a whip. Then he stormed in there with whip swinging, turning over heavy granite tables and kicking people out. His actions provoked the question: “What sign do you show for doing these things?” He answered: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” You all know the story (John 2:14-22).
When a notable philosophy professor at a Christian University speaks to a crowd of conservative Christian leaders and says that Evangelicals are “over-committed to Scripture,” it should make you angry. It should not be simply waved off for what it is: irrational and absurd. It should make us angry to the point that we do something about it. That’s what we will be doing here for at least the next year or ??? If nobody challenges an ideology, it is bound to grow into something bigger. What Moreland has done is create a straw-man (bibliolatry), drawn absurdities from the straw-man, and swooped in with a solution to the very problem he has created with his own hands. What must be challenged is his negative portrayal of the role of Scripture for those who hold a very high view of Scripture. This can be done by demonstrating that the Bible opposes what he teaches and that it can be reasonably believed as the motive for why he has created the fictive bibliolaters in his imagination. Such unbiblical ideas like freewill, natural theology, natural law, man’s Reason, contemplative meditation, pagan philosophy etc., are ideas that are foundational to Moreland’s worldview. Reduce the role of Scripture in theology and practice and these ideas will fly like the eagle! Maintain that the Bible is the final authority and these ideas die!
In his response to his paper’s critics, he mentioned that his intention was to deliver the paper to academics, not laypersons. But as Frank Pastore said, Moreland is a master wordsmith that chooses his words very carefully and knew exactly how he was going to say what he wanted to say. Never did he ever give any examples of who the infamous bibliolaters are. I have waited, searched, waited some more, and he never gave the example of any church, theologian, denomination, movement, etc., that claims that nothing can exist outside of the Bible. Are there even real people out there that believe this? Are there any Christians that really believe cars don’t exist because they’re not in the Bible (except for the accord)?
Thank you Stephen! I'm so tired of professing Christians speaking the lie of Satan, who made the first attack on God's Word with such a low view was Satan himself:Gen 3:1 "Did God actually say...?"
I'm equally tired of professing Christians not getting angry about the attack on God, His authority, and His Word. If that doesn't get us involved in the War on Truth, WHAT WILL? Jude speaks to this very issue--we are to EARNESTLY CONTEND for the faith! Sin, error, deception in HIS name SHOULD anger us. It SHOULD anger us to see His sheep led astray and given a diet of garbage instead of healthy food. Read Jeremiah7, the 11th verse is what Jesus was quoting when clearing out the moneychangers:
Jer 7:8 "Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail. Jer 7:9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, Jer 7:10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, 'We are delivered!'--only to go on doing all these abominations? Jer 7:11 Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the LORD.
The deception done in HIS name and in HIS temple was an abomination to God. He was angry. David also conveyed this idea:
Psa 139:19 Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God! O men of blood, depart from me! 20 They speak against you with malicious intent; your enemies take your name in vain! 21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? 22 I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! 24 And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!
Like Moreland and others, when you have a low view of Scripture, you will also have a low view of God and a very high view of man.
To quote Michael Patton (he's a member of the Evangelical Theological Society as is Moreland, and also director of Reclaiming the Mind (minstry of Chuch Swindoll's church and Dallas Theological Seminary):
“The presupposition is this: All writers of Scripture, by virtue ofdivine inspiration and inerrancy, must have recorded everything in a technically precise way. I take issue with this presupposition. I do not believe that inspiration and inerrancy require technical precision."“The Gospel writers were simply telling the story of Christ asenthusiastic reporters of good news who were emotionally committed to the truths upon which they were reporting. This happens every day in ourown news reporting system and we don’t hold their feet to the fire oftechnical precision.”“Did the writers record the very words of Christ or the spirit oftruth that his words represent? I would say any inductive approach to arriving at a hermeneutical method demands the latter.”
More low views of God's Word by Michael Patton defending his friend and Dallas Theological Cemetary (he's written a book for New Testament Greek classes in cemetaries), Dan Wallace :
We believe that the Bible is a product that involves 100% man’s input and 100% God’s, don’t we? If we don’t, then we might as well take man out of the picture all together and admit we hold to mechanical dictation (that God simply used the human authors’ hands in writing the Scripture, not their head—sometimes called biblical docetism). If mechanical dictation is true, then we should not care who the authors were writing to and we certainly should not care why they are writing since their motives do not influence the interpretation. I take it that this is all Dan is doing when he makes such statements. He is trying to help people understand that in order to discover the divine purpose of Scripture, we must first take into account the human purpose. I do understand that people have taken this type of redaction criticism too far. Some have gone to the point of denying the truthfulness of the event based upon the expediency of the moment. But this is not in any way what Dan is doing. He is just giving the authors liberty to write an accurate account of the events, while not having to be technically precise with the wording or structure. Scholars refer to this distinction as the difference between ipsissima verba (the very words) and ipsissima vox (the very voice). Did the writers record the very words of Christ or the spirit of truth that his words represent? I would say any inductive approach to arriving at a hermeneutical method demands the latter.
The Canon of Scripture isn't closed, Patton says.
Spurgeon deals with those who have such a low view of Scripture:
"Find Jesus where you may, He is the antagonist of those who would lessen the authority of Holy Scripture. “It is written” is His weapon against Satan, His argument against wicked men. The learned of this hour scoff at the Book and accuse of Bibliolatry those of us who reverence the Divine Word; but in this they derive no assistance from the teaching or example of Jesus."—Spurgeon
"Not a word derogatory of Scripture ever fell from the lips of Jesus Christ; but evermore He manifested the most reverent regard for every jot and tittle of the inspired Volume. Since our Savior, not only before His death, but after it, took care to commend the Scriptures to us, let us avoid with all our hearts all teaching in which Holy Scripture is put into the background."--Spurgeon
Greg Koukl of Stand To Reason ministry (also a guest of Reclaiming the Mind's Converse With a Scholar) questions "Is the Bible Sufficient?" which Martin Bobgan of Psycho-heresy Awareness Ministry critiques and says:
One of Koukl’s arguments supporting his insufficiency-of-Scripture position is his view of what he calls "Wisdom from the Heathen." Koukl’s position implies that if the Bible contains wisdom taken from heathens, then Christians can use wisdom from psychology heathens or others. Koukl says:
The Wisdom Literature of the Amenomope is a body of work from the Middle East that pre-dates Proverbs. It’s of interest because it contains a section of material almost identical to Proverbs 22:17-24:22. It’s highly probable that the authors of the latter part of Proverbs borrowed this material from the Amenomope and inserted it into the inspired text.
Scripture says:
Psa 119:89 Forever, O LORD, Your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Psa 138:2 I bow down toward Your holy temple and give thanks to Your name for Your steadfast love and your faithfulness, for You have exalted above all things Your name and Your word.
Is. 8: 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
Mat 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Psa 119:104 Through your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.
Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
Monday, April 07, 2008
Submerging the Mind With Poison
Submerging has a recent post touting Henri Nouwen via Ben Witherington.
Submerging is an arm ministry of Reclaiming the Mind
"This is the community blog of Reclaiming the Mind Ministries and sister blog to Parchment and Pen. We have a variety of contributors who add daily to the contents. The discussion is biblical, Christ-centered, and irenic.The views expressed here do not necessarily represent that of Reclaiming the Mind Ministries (although we are hopeful!)"
Favorite quotes of Nouwen given by Joanie D:
“To wait open-endedly is an enormously radical attitude toward life. So is to trust that something will happen to us that is far beyond our own imaginings. So, too, is giving up control over our future and letting God define our life, trusting that God molds us according to God’s love and not according to our fear.
“If it is true that God in Jesus Christ is waiting for our response to divine love, then we can discover a whole new perspective on how to wait in life.”
Ben Witherington (RTM's Converse With a Scholar offered him in the past although finding a direct link to him is removed for some reason) is pro-Roman Catholic, which means he's ecumenical and does not understand how the Gospel stands in contrast to what the RCC teaches:
He writes for inter-religious beliefnet:
“There can be little doubt that Cardinal Ratzinger had some of these deeper nuances of "following" in mind when he preached the Pope's homily. After all, we have now learned that the Holy Father actually contemplated stepping down in 2000, but then realized that Jesus had called him, like he had called Peter (his protégé and model as Pope) to follow him, even unto death, as a leader of the church. He was to spend his life force in that service, pouring out his life as an example of self-sacrificial love for others--the very opposite of self-centered or selfish behavior.
We may trust he has by now heard the Lord say those very things to him. We may hope that the next Pope is nearly so good and gracious a follower of the one who said "Follow me."
Its no wonder then, that Witherington has offered Nouwen as a positive teacher for his readers.
Richard Nouwen
"Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God's house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God."—From Sabbatical Journey, Henri Nouwen's last book page 51, 1998 Hardcover Edition
New Age Universalism:
Prayer is soul work because our souls are those sacred centers where all is one, ... It is in the heart of God that we can come to the full realization of the unity of all that is. (From Bread for the Journey)
"a place for everyone in heaven"(Life of the Beloved - p. 53)
"The God who dwells in our inner sanctuary is the same as the one who dwells in the inner sanctuary of each human being." Here and Now by Henri Nouwen; page 22
Henri Nouwen and His Buddhist Sympathies
Seminaries, Bible-studies and churches use his materials and quote from him. What did he really believe? by Ray Yungen
An individual who has gained popularity and respect in Christian circles, akin to that of Thomas Merton, is the now deceased Catholic theologian Henri Nouwen. Like Merton, Nouwen combines a strong devotion to God with a poetic, comforting, yet distinctly intellectual style that strikes a strong and sympathetic chord with what could be called Christian intelligentsia. Many pastors and professors are greatly attracted to his deep thinking. In fact, one of his biographers revealed that in a 1994 survey of 3,400 U.S. Protestant church leaders, Nouwen ranked second only to Billy Graham in influence among them.
Nouwen also attracts many lay people who regard him as very inspirational. One person told me that Nouwen's appeal could be compared to that of motherhood a warm comforting embrace that leaves you feeling good. Despite these glowing attributes, several aspects of Nouwen's spirituality have earned him a place in this book.
Unfortunately, this widely read and often-quoted author, at the end of his life, stated in clear terms that he approached God from a universalistic view. He proclaimed:
Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God's house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God.
Nouwen's endorsement of a book by Hindu spiritual teacher Eknath Easwaran, teaching mantra meditation, further illustrates his universalistic sympathies. On the back cover, Nouwen stated, "This book has helped me a great deal."—Read Entire Article, Henri Nouwen and Buddhism
Ray Yungen goes on to say:
Nouwen also wrote the foreword to a book that mixes Christianity with Hindu spirituality, in which he says:
[T]he author shows a wonderful openness to the gifts of Buddhism, Hinduism and Moslem religion. He discovers their great wisdom for the spiritual life of the Christian ... Ryan [the author] went to India to learn from spiritual traditions other than his own. He brought home many treasures and offers them to us in the book.
God demands purity in doctrine and practice. Nouwen, Witherington, and Submerge does not.
2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 2Co 6:15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 2Co 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2Co 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, 2Co 6:18 and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty."
Jer 6:10 To whom shall I speak and give warning, that they may hear? Behold, their ears are uncircumcised, they cannot listen; behold, the word of the LORD is to them an object of scorn; they take no pleasure in it.
Claiming what you are doing for the glory of God or for His church won't work. Its been done before by the slick false prophets of old:
Jer 7:4 Do not trust in these deceptive words: 'This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD.'
Peace? Shiloh ("Peace")will not have peace, nor will those "temples of the Lord" that combine pagan practices and doctrint with Truth. Using His name as a mantra for His glory yet combining it with evil doctrine and practices like that of the Occult and New Age will anger God:
Jer 7:9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, 'We are delivered!'--only to go on doing all these abominations? Jer 7:11 Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the LORD. Jer 7:12 Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first, and see what I did to it because of the evil of my people Israel. Jer 7:13 And now, because you have done all these things, declares the LORD, and when I spoke to you persistently you did not listen, and when I called you, you did not answer, Jer 7:14 therefore I will do to the house that is called by my name, and in which you trust, and to the place that I gave to you and to your fathers, as I did to Shiloh.
The God Who Sees Is Intolerant
Jer 7:23 But this command I gave them: 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' Jer 7:24 But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.
Jer 7:27 "So you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you. You shall call to them, but they will not answer you. Jer 7:28 And you shall say to them, 'This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the LORD their God, and did not accept discipline; truth has perished; it is cut off from their lips.
Jer 7:29 "'Cut off your hair and cast it away; raise a lamentation on the bare heights, for the LORD has rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.' Jer 7:30 "For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the LORD. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.
Deu 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
One of Joanie's favorite Nouwen's quotes is, “If it is true that God in Jesus Christ is waiting for our response to divine love...."
This doesn't make sense, as most of Nouwen's thought don't. Reading his paper was definitly a wading through fuzzy, confusing, New Age mumbo-jumbo. What SCRIPTURE says though is this:
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ....5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
2 Thes. 2: 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Eph. 1: 11 In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him
who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will,
Rom. 8: 30 And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace HIMSELF SANCTIFY you COMPLETELY, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful; HE will surely do it.
I don't see God "waiting" but rather bringing all things in conformity to HIS plan and HIS will. We wait on Him, for Him. HE doesn't wait for us. Scripture doesn't show God as passive, but rather as active (as the verses show above). Even in the crucifixion which Nouwen touches on, God was clearly active, indeed, since Gen. 1:1.
Acts 427 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
I'm so thankful that the true God of Scripture isn't man-centered nor waiting for man to do anything or understand anything. HE is truly in control of His whole creation and is conforming His true children actively by the power of the Word and the Person of the Holy Spirit. To HIS glory and grace.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as HE chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before HIM. In love 5 HE predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which HE has blessed us in the Beloved.
Submerging is an arm ministry of Reclaiming the Mind
"This is the community blog of Reclaiming the Mind Ministries and sister blog to Parchment and Pen. We have a variety of contributors who add daily to the contents. The discussion is biblical, Christ-centered, and irenic.The views expressed here do not necessarily represent that of Reclaiming the Mind Ministries (although we are hopeful!)"
Favorite quotes of Nouwen given by Joanie D:
“To wait open-endedly is an enormously radical attitude toward life. So is to trust that something will happen to us that is far beyond our own imaginings. So, too, is giving up control over our future and letting God define our life, trusting that God molds us according to God’s love and not according to our fear.
“If it is true that God in Jesus Christ is waiting for our response to divine love, then we can discover a whole new perspective on how to wait in life.”
Ben Witherington (RTM's Converse With a Scholar offered him in the past although finding a direct link to him is removed for some reason) is pro-Roman Catholic, which means he's ecumenical and does not understand how the Gospel stands in contrast to what the RCC teaches:
He writes for inter-religious beliefnet:
“There can be little doubt that Cardinal Ratzinger had some of these deeper nuances of "following" in mind when he preached the Pope's homily. After all, we have now learned that the Holy Father actually contemplated stepping down in 2000, but then realized that Jesus had called him, like he had called Peter (his protégé and model as Pope) to follow him, even unto death, as a leader of the church. He was to spend his life force in that service, pouring out his life as an example of self-sacrificial love for others--the very opposite of self-centered or selfish behavior.
We may trust he has by now heard the Lord say those very things to him. We may hope that the next Pope is nearly so good and gracious a follower of the one who said "Follow me."
Its no wonder then, that Witherington has offered Nouwen as a positive teacher for his readers.
Richard Nouwen
"Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God's house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God."—From Sabbatical Journey, Henri Nouwen's last book page 51, 1998 Hardcover Edition
New Age Universalism:
Prayer is soul work because our souls are those sacred centers where all is one, ... It is in the heart of God that we can come to the full realization of the unity of all that is. (From Bread for the Journey)
"a place for everyone in heaven"(Life of the Beloved - p. 53)
"The God who dwells in our inner sanctuary is the same as the one who dwells in the inner sanctuary of each human being." Here and Now by Henri Nouwen; page 22
Henri Nouwen and His Buddhist Sympathies
Seminaries, Bible-studies and churches use his materials and quote from him. What did he really believe? by Ray Yungen
An individual who has gained popularity and respect in Christian circles, akin to that of Thomas Merton, is the now deceased Catholic theologian Henri Nouwen. Like Merton, Nouwen combines a strong devotion to God with a poetic, comforting, yet distinctly intellectual style that strikes a strong and sympathetic chord with what could be called Christian intelligentsia. Many pastors and professors are greatly attracted to his deep thinking. In fact, one of his biographers revealed that in a 1994 survey of 3,400 U.S. Protestant church leaders, Nouwen ranked second only to Billy Graham in influence among them.
Nouwen also attracts many lay people who regard him as very inspirational. One person told me that Nouwen's appeal could be compared to that of motherhood a warm comforting embrace that leaves you feeling good. Despite these glowing attributes, several aspects of Nouwen's spirituality have earned him a place in this book.
Unfortunately, this widely read and often-quoted author, at the end of his life, stated in clear terms that he approached God from a universalistic view. He proclaimed:
Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God's house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God.
Nouwen's endorsement of a book by Hindu spiritual teacher Eknath Easwaran, teaching mantra meditation, further illustrates his universalistic sympathies. On the back cover, Nouwen stated, "This book has helped me a great deal."—Read Entire Article, Henri Nouwen and Buddhism
Ray Yungen goes on to say:
Nouwen also wrote the foreword to a book that mixes Christianity with Hindu spirituality, in which he says:
[T]he author shows a wonderful openness to the gifts of Buddhism, Hinduism and Moslem religion. He discovers their great wisdom for the spiritual life of the Christian ... Ryan [the author] went to India to learn from spiritual traditions other than his own. He brought home many treasures and offers them to us in the book.
God demands purity in doctrine and practice. Nouwen, Witherington, and Submerge does not.
2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 2Co 6:15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 2Co 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2Co 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, 2Co 6:18 and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty."
Jer 6:10 To whom shall I speak and give warning, that they may hear? Behold, their ears are uncircumcised, they cannot listen; behold, the word of the LORD is to them an object of scorn; they take no pleasure in it.
Claiming what you are doing for the glory of God or for His church won't work. Its been done before by the slick false prophets of old:
Jer 7:4 Do not trust in these deceptive words: 'This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD.'
Peace? Shiloh ("Peace")will not have peace, nor will those "temples of the Lord" that combine pagan practices and doctrint with Truth. Using His name as a mantra for His glory yet combining it with evil doctrine and practices like that of the Occult and New Age will anger God:
Jer 7:9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, 'We are delivered!'--only to go on doing all these abominations? Jer 7:11 Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the LORD. Jer 7:12 Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first, and see what I did to it because of the evil of my people Israel. Jer 7:13 And now, because you have done all these things, declares the LORD, and when I spoke to you persistently you did not listen, and when I called you, you did not answer, Jer 7:14 therefore I will do to the house that is called by my name, and in which you trust, and to the place that I gave to you and to your fathers, as I did to Shiloh.
The God Who Sees Is Intolerant
Jer 7:23 But this command I gave them: 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' Jer 7:24 But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.
Jer 7:27 "So you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you. You shall call to them, but they will not answer you. Jer 7:28 And you shall say to them, 'This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the LORD their God, and did not accept discipline; truth has perished; it is cut off from their lips.
Jer 7:29 "'Cut off your hair and cast it away; raise a lamentation on the bare heights, for the LORD has rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.' Jer 7:30 "For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the LORD. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.
Deu 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
One of Joanie's favorite Nouwen's quotes is, “If it is true that God in Jesus Christ is waiting for our response to divine love...."
This doesn't make sense, as most of Nouwen's thought don't. Reading his paper was definitly a wading through fuzzy, confusing, New Age mumbo-jumbo. What SCRIPTURE says though is this:
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ....5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
2 Thes. 2: 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Eph. 1: 11 In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him
who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will,
Rom. 8: 30 And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace HIMSELF SANCTIFY you COMPLETELY, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful; HE will surely do it.
I don't see God "waiting" but rather bringing all things in conformity to HIS plan and HIS will. We wait on Him, for Him. HE doesn't wait for us. Scripture doesn't show God as passive, but rather as active (as the verses show above). Even in the crucifixion which Nouwen touches on, God was clearly active, indeed, since Gen. 1:1.
Acts 427 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
I'm so thankful that the true God of Scripture isn't man-centered nor waiting for man to do anything or understand anything. HE is truly in control of His whole creation and is conforming His true children actively by the power of the Word and the Person of the Holy Spirit. To HIS glory and grace.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as HE chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before HIM. In love 5 HE predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which HE has blessed us in the Beloved.
Friday, April 04, 2008
Not Irenic, But Dogmatic on Truth
1Th 5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
Contrary to being "irenic", Scripture calls us to be black and white, engaged in spiritual warfare, where we know our enemy and fight to the death for Truth against error.
Below are excerpts taken from John MacArthur's sermon series on 2 Thes. 5:21-22
A Call To Discernment by John MacArthur from 1991:
The Weakening of Doctrinal Clarity and Conviction
There are, I believe, some identifiable causes as to why there is such a terrible lack of discernment in the church today. The main one I'll give you first, the weakening of doctrinal clarity and conviction...the weakening of doctrinal clarity and conviction. That's number one. There were much better times in the history of the church when Christians were encouraged to think biblically, to think theologically, to test everything, to search the scriptures thoroughly, to distinguish carefully its truths. And when discovering what was true, to take a stand and be immovable. Today, those who take firm stands on biblical doctrine are very frequently criticized for splitting hairs and being unloving because the norm today is to gaze lazily at the surface of scriptural truth and then even justify such cavalier shallowness as the desirable generosity of spirit toward those who differ. This is rampant in the church. You sort of just scan Scripture and you don't want to be too dogmatic because if you're dogmatic that's unloving to someone else who has a different opinion. And after all, we certainly don't want to split hairs. Jay Adams writes, "Nowhere is this tendency more apparent than in Christian counseling." He also writes, quote: "Self-styled experts in psychology, sociology and education who hold Ph.Ds in their fields and Sunday-school degrees in Bible pontificate on Christian teaching and life setting themselves up as spokesmen for God."
What he is basically saying...end quote...what he is saying is that the matter of biblical interpretation has been invaded by people who are ill-equipped to do that work. There is a lack of discernment, however, not only in the arena of counseling but there is a lack of doctrine and conviction in the ministry in general, it seems to me. Sharing has replaced preaching.
It is not an accident that the church in the name of unity, love and relationships has moved away from clarity and conviction and doctrine and has begun to favor openness, rejecting narrowness and dogmatism. This has been the prevailing climate in the culture around us. In fact, there's a war on standards. The war on standards is wholesale, isn't it? I mean, if you had a conviction about something it would have to be utterly arbitrary because there isn't any standard.
If I can kind of give you a perspective on all of this, I'm sure Satan knew we Christian evangelicals would not buy the theology of liberalism so he sold us the hermeneutics. What do you mean by that? Satan knew we wouldn't buy their theology so he sold us their principles of interpretation so sooner or later we would arrive at their theology...a kind of Christianity where doctrine and conviction are scorned. You go into the typical town, find the pulpit where the man of God clearly and deeply and profoundly and faithfully articulates doctrine and I'll show you a small group of faithful folk.
The Gospel
The other day I was doing a radio interview, a two-hour interview and the host of the program said to me, this is on a Christian station, the host of the program said to me, "Well how does a person become a Christian?" I said, "First of all to recognize your sinfulness, it is necessary to recognize that I am a sinner and to be willing to turn and repent from my sin and then to recognize that I cannot save myself, that I have no resources within me to redeem myself and cast myself on the mercy of God and to believe in Jesus Christ as God's Son who came into the world and died and paid the price for my sin and rose again for my justification." The host said, "You don't believe that everyone who gets saved has to believe all that, do you?" I said, "YES...yes." That host said to me, "I certainly didn't...didn't deal with any of my sins when I got saved." I said, "How did you get saved?" This was the reply, "I was in drugs, alcohol, living with my boyfriend in Science of Mind for six years and one day I just got Jesus' phone number." I said, "You just got Jesus' phone number?" "I just got Jesus' phone number and I just knew where He was."
What in the world are these people experiencing? When you don't even lay down clear doctrine at the level of the gospel, where you going to go from there? And the cry is, as one man said to me when my book on The Gospel According to Jesus came out, he said, "Your book is divisive. Your book is divisive." You want to know something? He's right. He's right. What to know something else? Doctrine divides. People say, "Oh doctrine divides...doctrine divides." I say, "Amen, preach it, doctrine divides." You know what it does? It confronts error. It separates true from false. It makes judgments. Today's climate, however, of unity in the priority of relationships, that's not tolerable.
You know, I believe...I believe that when evangelicals are willing to depreciate doctrine and when they're willing to set aside unpopular convictions, and when they're willing to stay silent on biblical teaching that offends people in error and sin, opposition will disappear and we could all get together. I believe that. I could start a unity movement...eliminate doctrine, set aside unpopular convictions, don't say anything that offends and we'll all get together. That isn't any surprise. But you know some other things are going to disappear too along with doctrine, like truth, conviction, discernment, righteousness, holiness, discipline, true love and spiritual maturity. They're all gone too and then God will disappear, Ichabod. That price is too high. That will produce a church victimized by hell's deceptions.
What do you think Paul had in mind when he said, "Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth?" It is a shame not to rightly divide the truth from error.
So the main contributor to this lack of discernment has been the weakening of doctrinal clarity and conviction in the name of unity, in the name of mystical experience, and so forth. And as I said, the liberals couldn't sell us their theology so they sold us their hermeneutics, relationships, love, unity, mystical experience and we buy in to that and we'll end up with the same chaos. Everybody talking about heaven ain't going there. And everybody talking about Jesus, Charismatics, neo-orthodox, Roman Catholics and everybody else, don't necessarily know Him.
A failure to be antithetical: be black and white
There's a second contributor, and I at least have to get two of these this morning. And this builds on it, and I want you to follow this. I don't want to get too philosophical for you here. The second is this, a failure to be antithetical, a failure to be antithetical. You say, "What do you mean by that?" I mean to be black and white. In debate, in argument, in theology, we talk about thesis and antithesis, a thesis is some truth that's laid down or some idea that's laid down or some concept that's laid down, and here is the opposing concept...black and white, thesis, antithesis. We have to think antithetically. We live in a culture that some say thinks on what you could call a continuum. In other words, there's no black/white. There's no right/ wrong, true/false, good/bad, there's just this long continuum of relative shades of gray. And everybody sort of is on their on there somewhere. Religion is subjective, spiritual experience is subjective. But listen, biblical preaching is not relative, it is not subjective, it is absolute, it is sharply black and white, it is pointedly antithetical to error. And I'm not trying to defend myself, I'm just dealing with the text here. But I tell you, the criticism that comes back to me all the time is, "You are so strong on doctrine." I don't know what else to be because that is the nature of truth, the truth divides and sets itself against error. We must think antithetically. You hear a thesis, and you must look at an antithesis, the opposite and test it. And it's absolute, truth is absolute, therefore it rubs people the wrong way. It hits them with conviction.
Since worldly thinking pollutes the minds of most church goers, and worldly thinking is this big gray area, nothing is really black and white, nothing is really right and wrong...
How the Bible is antithetical
So we have a culture growing up with continuum kind of thinking, that things are not black and white they're just different shades of gray. Black and white preaching, teaching from Scripture is seen as offensive and fanatical. But in the Bible, antithesis is crucial, discernment is essential. And the Bible just lays things down black and white. I mean, just follow this thought. From the Garden of Eden with its two trees, one allowed and one forbidden, to the eternal destiny of the human being, in heaven or hell, the Bible sets forth two and only two ways, God's way and all other ways. People are said to be saved or lost. They belong to God's people or Satan's people. There is the mount of blessing and the mount of cursing. There is the narrow way and the broad way. There is eternal life and eternal destruction. There are those who are against us and those who are with us. There are those within the Kingdom, those without the Kingdom. There is life and death, truth and falsehood, good and bad, light and darkness, kingdom of God, kingdom of Satan, love, hatred, spiritual wisdom, wisdom of the world. Christ is said to be the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Him, He is the only name under the sky by which one may be saved. Everything in Scripture is absolute. It is basic to divine revelation.
[Quoting Jay Adams here]In other words, the clean/unclean system was designed to develop in God's people an antithetical mentality. Forbidding the mixing of materials in clothing, for example, doesn't seem to arbitrary after all when considered in the light of the biblical concern to create a antithetical posture toward life. But with pastors and people alike growing up in an environment that stresses continual thinking, antithesis is dulled as more and more people attempt to integrate sociology, psychology, business management principles with the Scripture. Teachers in Christian colleges now consider it one of the key tasks of Christian higher education to seek to integrate the professor's faith with his learning. The key task, you see, is no longer to distinguish God's ways from others, but to find places of agreement."
That's a dangerous thing. The psalmist, listen to this, Psalm 1, "How blessed is the man who doesn't walk in the council of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of scoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord and in His law he meditates day and night." There's a clear line drawn. They're over here, we're over here. But this kind of continuum thinking has contributed to the climate where discernment is unnecessary, unthinkable and to pursue it is foolish, to pursue it is divisive...are you ready for this?...to pursue it is evil. You're an evil person if you draw lines. You're an evil person if you think in absolutes. You're an evil person if you have convictions. Discernment can only thrive in an environment of doctrinal absolutes.
Listen to Titus 1:9, "Holding fast...there's that same term about holding to what is good...holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, the doctrine, holding fast your doctrine so that you can exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict." We're in the refutation business as well as the affirmation business. When elders were to be selected, they were to have the ability to refute error.
A preoccupation with image and influence as the key to evangelization
The third one, the third cause in this lack of discernment is a preoccupation, listen carefully, a preoccupation with image and influence as the key to evangelization. A preoccupation with image and influence as the key to evangelization.
In other words, you hear this all the time, that if we are going to win the world we have to win their favor. The church has got to become a beloved agency. They've got to like us. So we don't want to fight for truth. We don't want to be too doctrinal. We don't want to offend anybody because image and influence is the key to evangelization.
Now what we're supposed to do is market ourselves so that we become a friendly place. Well, we certainly want to be loving and gracious but one sermon would convince most people that we're not all about just being friendly, we're all about preaching truth. The man who once took his stand for truth and preached it is now asked to take his seat. He's a problem. We don't fight for truth, we don't boldly proclaim truth because we're afraid we might offend an unbeliever. And after all, if anybody is going to get evangelized, it's going to be because they find us a friendly place, a nice place. We want to be popular with the world because we believe that's the key to evangelization. Imagine that. We are in to this whole deal that the image of the church and its non-threatening structure is the key to evangelization. This kind of movement believes that the church will offend unbelievers if it preaches sin or hell or repentance or the cross and it will lose its prestige. So the new trend is for the church to build an image of love and care and being very nice and make everybody comfortable and make everybody happy and entertain the unbeliever and make sure they're never offended and make sure they are very very comfortable. And the bottom line is, if they like us they'll like Jesus. That's the bottom line.
And when the church began to say we're going to have to have influence, and we're going to have to have prestige, and we're going to have to have popularity, we're going to have to be intellectually accepted, and we're going to have to embrace these people and show that we really like them and they're going to have to like us a lot if they're ever going to like our Jesus, it made a major turn...a major turn. Paul the Apostle said we are the scum, we are the dregs, we are the off-scouring of the world. Jesus said they hated Me, they'll hate you. But we've gotten sophisticated. This view believes that our prestige, our influence and our popularity is what gets people to the place where they'll believe the gospel. How absolutely wrong that is. How absolutely wrong. Real spiritual men fight and real spiritual men pay the price for bold clear loving proclamation of the truth. What I'm seeing happen I could call the feminization of the church...so soft.
We are an offense to all in error. We are an offense to all in rejection of the truth. We are an offense to all those who refuse Jesus Christ. We are an offense to all those who live in sin and to mitigate that offense is ridiculous because it is precisely what the Holy Spirit is intending to produce. He wants to convict because conviction and confrontation in conviction leads to salvation. Those offended should be offended.
Monday, March 31, 2008
Ecumenicism, Inclusivism, and Universalism: Thank You Mistress Rome, Rick Warren, and the Emergent Church Movement!
Ken Silva of Apprising Ministries has a new article on the ecumenical Emergent, Samir Selmonovich.
This article made me think of other quotes by famous heretics in professing Christianity and you can see The Merge happening (at the price of Truth and hate for Christ Jesus). Clearly the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has embraced "New" Ageism and continues to spread it over time, so that on the one hand The Mistress (called this in Trent Council CANON III) says only in her is there salvation (RCC Catechism #845 & #846), but on the other hand she embraces false religions has having good things in them which lead them to the truth (based on works, of course).
I can truly see how the One World religion in the very last days could very well come about. Remember: both Islam and the Mistress Rome have held "convert or die" for centuries, just as the Lawless One will do in the last days.
Mistress Rome and Islam and Other Religions
The Roman Catholic Encyclopedia says: Nostra Aetate:Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions The Second Vatican Council Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI October 28, 1965 Paul, Bishop, Servant of the Servants of God, together with the Fathers of the Sacred Council. For Everlasting Memory.
"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions [Hinduism, Buddism]. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. The Church therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."
"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself, merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes great pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgement when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. "
"Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this Sacred Synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."
RCC Catechism # 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."
RCC Cat. # 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Scripture, however says:
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
Catholic churches in the Netherlands should use the name Allah for God to ease tensions between Muslims and Christians, says a Dutch bishop.
Recently Benedict Ratzinger "baptized" a prominent Italian Muslim. Remember Muslims are given permission to lie:
The principle of Al-Takeyya over at Islam Review:
The Arabic word, "Takeyya", means "to prevent," or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one's self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts. Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:
"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Surah 3: 28
According to this verse a Muslim can pretend to befriend infidels (in violation of the teachings of Islam) and display adherence with their unbelief to prevent them from harming him. Under the concept of Takeyya and short of killing another human being, if under the threat of force, it is legitimate for Muslims to act contrary to their faith. The following actions are acceptable:
Drink wine, abandon prayers, and skip fasting during Ramadan.
Renounce belief in Allah.
Kneel in homage to a deity other than Allah.
Utter insincere oaths.
End quote.
Remember, the Quran says Allah is the greatest of deceivers according to Surah 3:54. Is it any wonder they so easily lie? Their own father is the Father of Lies.
What better way for Islam to gain a hold of the Mistress Rome, than to infiltrate her? Roman Catholicism sees Islam as a threat no doubt, due to Islam's increasing numbers.
Theresa of Calcutta was a unversalist
"There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our example to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs—all different religions. But they all come to our prayers." - Theresa of Calcutta
"There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ..." Sayings of "Mother" Theresa
Billy Graham Is a Universalist (or at least an Inclusivist):
Billy Graham's inclusion of RCC...this is especially condemning of Graham because he holds John Paul 2 up as a believer, all the while Paul 2 blasphemed the very sacrifice of Christ through the damnable eucharist in Mass, taught the dogmas of the RCC which went directly against grace alone in Christ alone apart from any works. John Paul 2 was deceiving millions world-wide:
Dr. Graham told Larry King he had the privilege of seeing the Pope on several occasions at the Vatican.
"And tonight, I have a very strange feeling of loss. I almost feel as though one of my family members has gone. I loved him very much and had the opportunity of discussing so many things with him. And we wrote each other several times during the years," Dr. Graham said.
KING: You said that he was an Evangelist.
GRAHAM: He was, indeed. He traveled throughout the world to bring his Christian message to the world. And we see tonight the outpouring from the world that he touched. And I think he touched almost everybody in the whole world.
KING: There is no question in your mind that he is with God now?
GRAHAM: Oh, no. There may be a question about my own, but I don't think Cardinal Wojtyla, or the Pope -- I think he's with the Lord, because he believed. He believed in the Cross. That was his focus throughout his ministry, the Cross, no matter if you were talking to him from personal issue or an ethical problem, he felt that there was the answer to all of our problems, the cross and the resurrection. And he was a strong believer.
Television interview of Billy Graham by Robert Schuller. Part 1, an approximately 7-minute-long broadcast in Southern California on Saturday, May 31, 1997. The following is an exact transcript* of an excerpt close to the end of this broadcast. Go here for the transcript.
Schuller:Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?
Graham:Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival, that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.
Schuller:What, what I hear you saying that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?
Graham:Yes, it is, because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.
(For the video of the above exchange go to Christian Research Network.)
However God says otherwise:
Act 4:11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Fatheer.
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rick Warren is a Universalist:
Berit Kjos has quotes from new ager Alice Bailey and from Rick Warren on his inclusivism as well at Crossroad:
“I happen to know people who are followers of Christ in other religions.” —Rick Warren Aspen Ideas Festival, The Aspen Institute, July 6, 2005, “Discussion: Religion and Leadership,” with David Gergen and Rick Warren
“...You may be Catholic or Protestant or Buddhist or Baptist or Muslim or Mormon or Jewish or Jain, or you have no religion at all. I’m not interested in your religious background. Because God did not create the universe for us to have religion. He came for us to have a relationship with him.” —Rick Warren United Nations, Interfaith Prayer Breakfast, September 2005
Jimmy Carter is a Universalist
Differences of belief -- even among Muslims, Jews and Christians -- are outweighed by a common commitment ‘to truth …’ [Presiden Jimmy ]Carter said. “A World of Baptists” by Greg Warner, Associated Baptist Press, 8/5/05
New Ager Alice Bailey is a Universalist
This Oneness is found in Theosophy (part of the “Ancient Wisdom”) taught by both Alice Bailey and H. P. Blavatsky. It includes the following widespread principles listed by the Blavatsky Net Foundation:
“Brotherhood is a fact in nature. We are ONE at the highest spiritual component of our nature. We are sparks from one flame.”
“The religions of the world are branches on the tree whose trunk is the one ancient - once universal - wisdom religion. The religions are the tributaries of one great river.”
“Humanity’s potential is infinite and every being has a contribution to make toward a grander world. We are all in it together. We are one.”
This article made me think of other quotes by famous heretics in professing Christianity and you can see The Merge happening (at the price of Truth and hate for Christ Jesus). Clearly the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has embraced "New" Ageism and continues to spread it over time, so that on the one hand The Mistress (called this in Trent Council CANON III) says only in her is there salvation (RCC Catechism #845 & #846), but on the other hand she embraces false religions has having good things in them which lead them to the truth (based on works, of course).
I can truly see how the One World religion in the very last days could very well come about. Remember: both Islam and the Mistress Rome have held "convert or die" for centuries, just as the Lawless One will do in the last days.
Mistress Rome and Islam and Other Religions
The Roman Catholic Encyclopedia says: Nostra Aetate:Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions The Second Vatican Council Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI October 28, 1965 Paul, Bishop, Servant of the Servants of God, together with the Fathers of the Sacred Council. For Everlasting Memory.
"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions [Hinduism, Buddism]. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. The Church therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."
"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself, merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes great pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgement when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. "
"Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this Sacred Synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."
RCC Catechism # 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."
RCC Cat. # 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Scripture, however says:
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
Catholic churches in the Netherlands should use the name Allah for God to ease tensions between Muslims and Christians, says a Dutch bishop.
Recently Benedict Ratzinger "baptized" a prominent Italian Muslim. Remember Muslims are given permission to lie:
The principle of Al-Takeyya over at Islam Review:
The Arabic word, "Takeyya", means "to prevent," or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one's self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts. Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:
"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Surah 3: 28
According to this verse a Muslim can pretend to befriend infidels (in violation of the teachings of Islam) and display adherence with their unbelief to prevent them from harming him. Under the concept of Takeyya and short of killing another human being, if under the threat of force, it is legitimate for Muslims to act contrary to their faith. The following actions are acceptable:
Drink wine, abandon prayers, and skip fasting during Ramadan.
Renounce belief in Allah.
Kneel in homage to a deity other than Allah.
Utter insincere oaths.
End quote.
Remember, the Quran says Allah is the greatest of deceivers according to Surah 3:54. Is it any wonder they so easily lie? Their own father is the Father of Lies.
What better way for Islam to gain a hold of the Mistress Rome, than to infiltrate her? Roman Catholicism sees Islam as a threat no doubt, due to Islam's increasing numbers.
Theresa of Calcutta was a unversalist
"There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our example to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs—all different religions. But they all come to our prayers." - Theresa of Calcutta
"There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ..." Sayings of "Mother" Theresa
Billy Graham Is a Universalist (or at least an Inclusivist):
Billy Graham's inclusion of RCC...this is especially condemning of Graham because he holds John Paul 2 up as a believer, all the while Paul 2 blasphemed the very sacrifice of Christ through the damnable eucharist in Mass, taught the dogmas of the RCC which went directly against grace alone in Christ alone apart from any works. John Paul 2 was deceiving millions world-wide:
Dr. Graham told Larry King he had the privilege of seeing the Pope on several occasions at the Vatican.
"And tonight, I have a very strange feeling of loss. I almost feel as though one of my family members has gone. I loved him very much and had the opportunity of discussing so many things with him. And we wrote each other several times during the years," Dr. Graham said.
KING: You said that he was an Evangelist.
GRAHAM: He was, indeed. He traveled throughout the world to bring his Christian message to the world. And we see tonight the outpouring from the world that he touched. And I think he touched almost everybody in the whole world.
KING: There is no question in your mind that he is with God now?
GRAHAM: Oh, no. There may be a question about my own, but I don't think Cardinal Wojtyla, or the Pope -- I think he's with the Lord, because he believed. He believed in the Cross. That was his focus throughout his ministry, the Cross, no matter if you were talking to him from personal issue or an ethical problem, he felt that there was the answer to all of our problems, the cross and the resurrection. And he was a strong believer.
Television interview of Billy Graham by Robert Schuller. Part 1, an approximately 7-minute-long broadcast in Southern California on Saturday, May 31, 1997. The following is an exact transcript* of an excerpt close to the end of this broadcast. Go here for the transcript.
Schuller:Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?
Graham:Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival, that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.
Schuller:What, what I hear you saying that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?
Graham:Yes, it is, because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.
(For the video of the above exchange go to Christian Research Network.)
However God says otherwise:
Act 4:11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Fatheer.
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rick Warren is a Universalist:
Berit Kjos has quotes from new ager Alice Bailey and from Rick Warren on his inclusivism as well at Crossroad:
“I happen to know people who are followers of Christ in other religions.” —Rick Warren Aspen Ideas Festival, The Aspen Institute, July 6, 2005, “Discussion: Religion and Leadership,” with David Gergen and Rick Warren
“...You may be Catholic or Protestant or Buddhist or Baptist or Muslim or Mormon or Jewish or Jain, or you have no religion at all. I’m not interested in your religious background. Because God did not create the universe for us to have religion. He came for us to have a relationship with him.” —Rick Warren United Nations, Interfaith Prayer Breakfast, September 2005
Jimmy Carter is a Universalist
Differences of belief -- even among Muslims, Jews and Christians -- are outweighed by a common commitment ‘to truth …’ [Presiden Jimmy ]Carter said. “A World of Baptists” by Greg Warner, Associated Baptist Press, 8/5/05
New Ager Alice Bailey is a Universalist
This Oneness is found in Theosophy (part of the “Ancient Wisdom”) taught by both Alice Bailey and H. P. Blavatsky. It includes the following widespread principles listed by the Blavatsky Net Foundation:
“Brotherhood is a fact in nature. We are ONE at the highest spiritual component of our nature. We are sparks from one flame.”
“The religions of the world are branches on the tree whose trunk is the one ancient - once universal - wisdom religion. The religions are the tributaries of one great river.”
“Humanity’s potential is infinite and every being has a contribution to make toward a grander world. We are all in it together. We are one.”
Friday, March 28, 2008
Tim Keller Joins Rick Warren, Alan Hirsch, Andy Stanley, and Other Emergents at Exponential 08 Conference
Exponential Conference for 2008's speakers: http://www.exponentialconference.org/ Is nothibng but yet another conference to spread the Emergent Church Movement poison. The speakers this year are:
Andy Stanley
Ken Silva of Apprising Ministries says in his article ANDY STANLEY SHARES THE NEW EVANGELICAL MAN-CENTERED MANTRA: Quote:
"Andy Stanley, senior pastor of North Point Ministries in Atlanta, suggested that churches should not focus solely on converting people, as has been the emphasis for generations.
“If we were able to rewrite the script for the reputation of Christianity, I think we would put the emphasis on developing relationships with non-believers, serving them, loving them, and making them feel accepted,” he wrote. “Only then would we earn the right to share the gospel.”
There’s every reason to think that Stanley’s broad-brush pop-art painting plays very well to our notoriously capricious culture but the fact is those of us who hold to proper Biblical theology don’t teach that churches should “focus solely on converting people.” At the same time, that the “converting [of] people...has been the emphasis for generations” really shouldn’t surprise a pastor because it is the secondary mission of local churches. The first being the building up of the Christian to maturity in Christ in order that the Lord may then use them in service as He wills.--Ken Silva
Unquote.
Stanley's 2005 Drive Conference: Pimp My Church Van : found at http://patamo.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_archive.html Slice of Laodicea talked about it too, but the video and Conference info from that year has now been removed. Gee, I wonder why.
This is an interesting favorable book review on Stanley (which reveals a lot):
"Andy Stanley's purpose in writing "The Next Generation Leader" was to pass on to emerging leaders lessons learned in his own leadership experiences. The book centers on five leadership concepts. 1. Competence - Focus your time and energy in your areas of strength. 2. Courage - The leader is the one willing to take the lead. 3. Clarity - Be clear even if you are uncertain. 4. Coaching - It takes a coach to bring out your full potential. 5. Character - Character makes you a leader worth following and it provides you with moral authority. In Augustinian terms, Stanley has plundered the Egyptians, by borrowing many concepts from authors of business books and translating them into the vernacular of the minister and the world of the church. He does this with numerous examples of characters in the Bible and from his own personal life and ministry. "The Next Generation Leader" is a short, interesting, and thoughtful book designed for those beginning their leadership journey. It should also provide reminders and challenges to those who have served as leaders for some time. I highly recommend the book for emerging Christian leaders. If you are looking for a more comprehensive study of church leadership from a similar perspective I would recommend "Courageous Leadership" by Bill Hybels or "The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership" by John Maxwell."
Andy Stanley heads up The Catalyst Conference
"The Genesis of Catalyst Catalyst was conceived as a Next Generation Leaders Conference in 1999 by Andy Stanley and Reggie Joiner from North Point Community Church, along with John C. Maxwell, Gabe Lyons and several young leaders from INJOY[Maxwell's group]. Catalyst was created to meet the felt need that existed within the church leader space for a leadership event that was focused on a new generation of church leaders. Everything within this space seemed built around a forty to sixty year old mindset and medium. This team was convinced that this needed to change. "
Emergent Partners with Catalyst: includes Leadership Journal, Leadership Network, fermi project, and Relevant Magazine.
Catalyst Conference 2007 speakers: Notice the Emergent leaders included:
"Catalyst Conference 2007 CD PackageTake your Catalyst Leadership Experience home with you. Share it with friends or listen in your car. Take Andy Stanley, Erwin McManus, Patrick Lencioni, Rick Warren, Craig Groeschel, John Maxwell, Francis Chan, Dave Ramsey, Tim Sanders, Tri Robinson, Gabe Lyons, Dave Kinnaman, Chris Seay, Shane Claiborne and Sunday Adelaja home with you. You will gain incredible leadership insight from this series for years to come."
Catalyst had heretic Rob Bell in July 2006: "Our latest issue features an interview with Rob Bell, the teaching pastor at Mars Hill just outside of Grand Rapids, and the voice of NOOMA. Rob gives a plethora (yes, plethora) of valuable thoughts, ideas and insights on everything from historical Jewish customs to the “call” of a pastor. He truly seems to be at another level in his thinking. One big idea that seemed to be consistent throughout the two part interview was the value and importance of churches being involved in the local community. So we want to know specifically how YOUR church is having an impact on your local community. Share what is happening."
Alan Hirsch: Emergent Church Movement leader and pusher.
Ed Stetzer He's on board with ECM leader Potty Mouth Mark Driscoll. ECM blogger TallSkinnyKiwi loves him (which means even if Stetzer started out sort of critiquing ECM, he's not so opposed to it that they couldn't stand him..and now he's joined the softer side via Driscoll's Resurgence team.)
Steve Andrews : Emergent/Pagan-friendly: His church boasts:
We'll Help You Lose Your Religion.
Or at least your perception of it. Maybe you think going to church means being scolded, subjected to boring sermons, and having your wallet emptied. We don't blame you. In fact, we think one of the biggest barriers to getting to know God has been the church itself.
No Hymns, No Pews, And No Excuses Not To Come.
Instead of an organ and choir, we have a dynamic band playing music that matters to you. Instead of ritual and routine, we have compelling dramas, comedy skits, and exciting multi-media. All designed to present biblical truths and how they apply to your everyday life.
A New Way To Do Church.
Our casual, relaxed atmosphere is a place to investigate Christianity without guilt or pressure. A place to grow spiritually at your own pace. With unconditional love, support, and acceptance during your journey. No strings attached. So come as you are. Go as you want to be. From modern dance to computer animation, we approach church with a wide range of artistic expression and a sense of humor. And we build this freshness and fun into our children's and youth programs, too.
Common Ground for RCers at Andrew's church:
Born and Raised Catholic?
Increase your understanding of Catholic and Protestant beliefs by attending our Pastors & Priests workshop. You'll learn there are many agreements between the two (probably more than you think!) but also take a fair look at the differences. Topics include Purgatory, the Pope, the Virgin Mary, and more! April 19, 2008 9-noon, Clinton Township campus. FREE. Click here to register or call 248-786-0688.
Dave Ferguson: **Update**
Community Christian Church was recently listed in the Top 50 Most Influential Churches according to The Church Report. This alone should be a huge red flag. Dave Ferguson is their senior pastor.
Jeff, an attender of CCC pointed out my misunderstanding regarding Pat Masek being a pastor instead of the assistant to the pastor at CCC. I have corrected my error; an error which was not intentional at all. The doctrine of male leadership would dictate however, as I stated, that no women could be pastors (or leaders of men in church), therefore if a church has a female leading the men, its not a biblical church, which was my point. Here we see Ferguson applaud and look up to women in leadership at his church anyway.
And finally, the other two teachers at the emergent Exponential 08 Conference, none other than Rick Warren and Tim Keller .
It doesn't matter how many people say Keller's not going emergent. The fact is, he's a heretic and he's sharing the stage with several Emergent Church Movement leaders.
2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,
Andy Stanley
Ken Silva of Apprising Ministries says in his article ANDY STANLEY SHARES THE NEW EVANGELICAL MAN-CENTERED MANTRA: Quote:
"Andy Stanley, senior pastor of North Point Ministries in Atlanta, suggested that churches should not focus solely on converting people, as has been the emphasis for generations.
“If we were able to rewrite the script for the reputation of Christianity, I think we would put the emphasis on developing relationships with non-believers, serving them, loving them, and making them feel accepted,” he wrote. “Only then would we earn the right to share the gospel.”
There’s every reason to think that Stanley’s broad-brush pop-art painting plays very well to our notoriously capricious culture but the fact is those of us who hold to proper Biblical theology don’t teach that churches should “focus solely on converting people.” At the same time, that the “converting [of] people...has been the emphasis for generations” really shouldn’t surprise a pastor because it is the secondary mission of local churches. The first being the building up of the Christian to maturity in Christ in order that the Lord may then use them in service as He wills.--Ken Silva
Unquote.
Stanley's 2005 Drive Conference: Pimp My Church Van : found at http://patamo.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_archive.html Slice of Laodicea talked about it too, but the video and Conference info from that year has now been removed. Gee, I wonder why.
This is an interesting favorable book review on Stanley (which reveals a lot):
"Andy Stanley's purpose in writing "The Next Generation Leader" was to pass on to emerging leaders lessons learned in his own leadership experiences. The book centers on five leadership concepts. 1. Competence - Focus your time and energy in your areas of strength. 2. Courage - The leader is the one willing to take the lead. 3. Clarity - Be clear even if you are uncertain. 4. Coaching - It takes a coach to bring out your full potential. 5. Character - Character makes you a leader worth following and it provides you with moral authority. In Augustinian terms, Stanley has plundered the Egyptians, by borrowing many concepts from authors of business books and translating them into the vernacular of the minister and the world of the church. He does this with numerous examples of characters in the Bible and from his own personal life and ministry. "The Next Generation Leader" is a short, interesting, and thoughtful book designed for those beginning their leadership journey. It should also provide reminders and challenges to those who have served as leaders for some time. I highly recommend the book for emerging Christian leaders. If you are looking for a more comprehensive study of church leadership from a similar perspective I would recommend "Courageous Leadership" by Bill Hybels or "The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership" by John Maxwell."
Andy Stanley heads up The Catalyst Conference
"The Genesis of Catalyst Catalyst was conceived as a Next Generation Leaders Conference in 1999 by Andy Stanley and Reggie Joiner from North Point Community Church, along with John C. Maxwell, Gabe Lyons and several young leaders from INJOY[Maxwell's group]. Catalyst was created to meet the felt need that existed within the church leader space for a leadership event that was focused on a new generation of church leaders. Everything within this space seemed built around a forty to sixty year old mindset and medium. This team was convinced that this needed to change. "
Emergent Partners with Catalyst: includes Leadership Journal, Leadership Network, fermi project, and Relevant Magazine.
Catalyst Conference 2007 speakers: Notice the Emergent leaders included:
"Catalyst Conference 2007 CD PackageTake your Catalyst Leadership Experience home with you. Share it with friends or listen in your car. Take Andy Stanley, Erwin McManus, Patrick Lencioni, Rick Warren, Craig Groeschel, John Maxwell, Francis Chan, Dave Ramsey, Tim Sanders, Tri Robinson, Gabe Lyons, Dave Kinnaman, Chris Seay, Shane Claiborne and Sunday Adelaja home with you. You will gain incredible leadership insight from this series for years to come."
Catalyst had heretic Rob Bell in July 2006: "Our latest issue features an interview with Rob Bell, the teaching pastor at Mars Hill just outside of Grand Rapids, and the voice of NOOMA. Rob gives a plethora (yes, plethora) of valuable thoughts, ideas and insights on everything from historical Jewish customs to the “call” of a pastor. He truly seems to be at another level in his thinking. One big idea that seemed to be consistent throughout the two part interview was the value and importance of churches being involved in the local community. So we want to know specifically how YOUR church is having an impact on your local community. Share what is happening."
Alan Hirsch: Emergent Church Movement leader and pusher.
Ed Stetzer He's on board with ECM leader Potty Mouth Mark Driscoll. ECM blogger TallSkinnyKiwi loves him (which means even if Stetzer started out sort of critiquing ECM, he's not so opposed to it that they couldn't stand him..and now he's joined the softer side via Driscoll's Resurgence team.)
Steve Andrews : Emergent/Pagan-friendly: His church boasts:
We'll Help You Lose Your Religion.
Or at least your perception of it. Maybe you think going to church means being scolded, subjected to boring sermons, and having your wallet emptied. We don't blame you. In fact, we think one of the biggest barriers to getting to know God has been the church itself.
No Hymns, No Pews, And No Excuses Not To Come.
Instead of an organ and choir, we have a dynamic band playing music that matters to you. Instead of ritual and routine, we have compelling dramas, comedy skits, and exciting multi-media. All designed to present biblical truths and how they apply to your everyday life.
A New Way To Do Church.
Our casual, relaxed atmosphere is a place to investigate Christianity without guilt or pressure. A place to grow spiritually at your own pace. With unconditional love, support, and acceptance during your journey. No strings attached. So come as you are. Go as you want to be. From modern dance to computer animation, we approach church with a wide range of artistic expression and a sense of humor. And we build this freshness and fun into our children's and youth programs, too.
Common Ground for RCers at Andrew's church:
Born and Raised Catholic?
Increase your understanding of Catholic and Protestant beliefs by attending our Pastors & Priests workshop. You'll learn there are many agreements between the two (probably more than you think!) but also take a fair look at the differences. Topics include Purgatory, the Pope, the Virgin Mary, and more! April 19, 2008 9-noon, Clinton Township campus. FREE. Click here to register or call 248-786-0688.
Dave Ferguson: **Update**
Community Christian Church was recently listed in the Top 50 Most Influential Churches according to The Church Report. This alone should be a huge red flag. Dave Ferguson is their senior pastor.
Jeff, an attender of CCC pointed out my misunderstanding regarding Pat Masek being a pastor instead of the assistant to the pastor at CCC. I have corrected my error; an error which was not intentional at all. The doctrine of male leadership would dictate however, as I stated, that no women could be pastors (or leaders of men in church), therefore if a church has a female leading the men, its not a biblical church, which was my point. Here we see Ferguson applaud and look up to women in leadership at his church anyway.Jeff's comment, however, led me to some more research which I find EXTREEMLY troubling and unbiblical.
Ferguson has shared the pulpit with Tim Keller and Mark Driscoll at Innovation and Exponential conferences.
At Dave Ferguson's blog, he writes in glowing words the following on Novermber 15,2009 titled "Two Chefs, A Pub, And An Art Show" (some emphasis, mine, some original):
Quote:
So what do two chefs, a neighborhood pub and an art show all have in common? They are all a part of the ministry of Life Church in New Castle, Australia. This Life Church is not be to be confused with maybe another LifeChurch.tv you have heard about. While this Life Church may have far less people, they make up for it with a tremendous missional drive and desire. During the first four days of our trip to Australia Kevin Wilcock, the Pastor of the church was our host. How do I describe Kevin? The only thing Kevin loves more than a good drink and a party is probably his family, his church and Jesus! Kevin is a wild character; but he has a creative passion for helping people find their way back to God.
They announced they were starting a new service in the local pub called The Kent that would meet on Sunday nights. The poster advertising the "2 beer service" is to your left.
All this took place just during the few days I was there...while holding a leadership conference! They are doing a lot more than that too! They have AA groups, SA groups, NA groups and more. They host jazz concerts with local professional jazz musicians at their church.
I left his church inspired to be more missional, more engaged in the community an more intentional about using all our resources to reach out to the least, lost and lonely and help them find their way back to God!
End quote,
"Church" and "beer" should never go together for a number of reasons. The first of which, we live in a society where getting drunk is an enormous problem (as is drunk driving). There are many drunks too, hence the popularity of AA. And while offering a pub and beer as a MINISTRY, they also offer AA? That's not only unbiblical, its unbelievable and self-contradictory! The other reason is that pastors should not cause the weaker brothers to stumble. Promoting church drinking...CHURCH DRINKING is not love at all; its sin against those Christians who have a struggle or who have had a struggle with alcohol, or who have family members that do. Its also sin against a young Christian who is very impressionable and perhaps has a very sensitive conscience, having just come out of the world. This isn't being others-minded. Its being worldly, fleshly, and frankly, if I may, immature.
In addition, pastors, as well as all Christians, really, are to be examples to the lost and dying world. While drinking on occassion in a private or quiet way is not prohibited by Scripture, promoting it and COMBINING it with the church is flaunting a "freedom" that is diametrically opposed by God's Word. Scripture says we are to be sober-minded (1Thes. 5:7-9; 1Tim. 3:2,11; 2Tim. 4:5;Titus 2:2; 1Peter 1:3;1Peter 4:7). This is especially true of men in leadership.
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
Rom 14:19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
Tit 2:7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your
teaching show integrity, dignity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an
opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.
Eph 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the
Spirit,
And finally, the other two teachers at the emergent Exponential 08 Conference, none other than Rick Warren and Tim Keller .
It doesn't matter how many people say Keller's not going emergent. The fact is, he's a heretic and he's sharing the stage with several Emergent Church Movement leaders.
2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,
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